Muslims

[jerseydevil]

By the way Percy - who here said that "Israel was good" and "Palistine was evil"? Of course Palestine doesn't exist so it should be "Palestinians". But now has said "The Palestinians are evil" either. I hope you don't mean on this board - because no one has said that here.

[Percy Weasley]

Indeed, JD, I was referring to no one in particular.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Percy Weasley
This makes me wonder how the media portrays the United States in the rest of the world. Could their opinion of us be as biased and inaccurate as ours is of them, simply because the press has a bad habit of only printing that which is "Newsworthy?"

Certainly. All news are biased. Conflicts are food for the press. What we get to know about the world through media is at best only a small and carefully selected portion of the truth, or at worst blatant lies. We have of course the opportunity to seek other sources of information than the one we usually listen to, but most people do not have time or resources to do this. Many people doesn't even recognise the fact that news sources are biased.

As JD said, Isabel is a good example on how the press exaggerates things and make them more dramatic than they are.

Someone said here several pages ago that the European media tend to be biased in favour of the Palestinians in the Middle east conflict, and the American media tend to be biased in favour of the Israelis. I can only speak for what I see in Norwegian media, and it is true that they mostly take on the Palesinian view.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Percy Weasley
It seems that the world is desperate to sort things into little cardboard two-dimensional boxes, because it is easier for them to do. But it overlooks and oversimplifies far too much! Sure, if they're evil, kill them, it's the right thing to do. That's caused problems both for Americans and for the Radical Islamic terrorists. We assume they're evil, they assume we're evil, and therefore "God" is on their side if they kill us, after all, we're just saving the world from the dark side, right?

True enough. When you're at war you just don't want to know that the people you're fighting are quite possibly people just like you, who love their children and who want to live a peaceful and happy life as much as you. To believe in a black--and-white image (however wrong that image may be) is much more easy than to remember that reality comes in many, many shades of grey. It reminds me of a certain comment I once read in a national geographic from (I think) a man from Afghanistan to an American reporter. I believe it was something along the line of: "I can no longer hate America because you will be there." When you get to know your 'enemy' you might be forced to thoroughly reconsider the image you had of him.

I think the media has a lot -perhaps a little too much- influence on how we see other people. Of course it's often the only way to know more about other countries and cultures. One cannot expect everybody to know other people personally on the other side of the world.

It's also very difficult, I think, to bring all aspects of another culture, land or conflict on screen or on paper. Sometimes things can be so bloody complicated that every more simplistic rendering can give an entirely wrong image. And then there is of course the thing that complete objectivity is near impossible. Everybody has his or her own perception of things. Which is not necesarily a bad thing, but it can give birth to different kinds of 'thruths'.

All news is biased in some way I fear, be them European or American or other. And now I'm not blaming the media for doing it on purpose, but it's incredibly hard to tell about often complicated things without looking at things from your point of view, your own culture. And it's not necesarily a thankful job.

[Blackheart]

You're all doomed...

This thread only proves it.

Terrorism is an old, old method of waging war. It's nothing new.
It wasn't invented by Muslims, nor really, have they actually improved on the methods....

What is new is the idea of nationalistic governments that are supposed to be able to control their populations. Which is patently absurd.

You can't see the real reasons for the conflict, because they aren't rational, or logical, or even what you might suppose...

There's a conflict because it's time for a conflict. The normal human mechanism for reducing overpopulation is war... Hate becomes a reflex. It's rooted in your genes.

Isreali will kill Palestinian and Palestinain will kill Isreali not because of land, or politics, or religion, or even revenge. They will do it because they are insane. They are caught up in a madness, from which they cannot escape.

They are all fey. (Fated to die soon/Full of the sense of approaching death.) Many of them are berserk. Both peoples are locked into a struggle which will not end until the entire region is devastated. It's like two pitbulls locked in a death fight, both with their jaws on the throats of the other...

And all you people can do is try to figure out who's ****ing fault it is.

Brilliant.

Assuming, for a second, that you somehow did figure out who was to blame, some aggregate of responsibility that somehow tipped the scales one way or the other, exactly what good would it do? Would it suddenly make all the deaths on both sides somehow mean something?

In case you missed it, I'll say it again.

You're all doomed...

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Blackheart
They are all fey. (Fated to die soon/Full of the sense of approaching death.) Many of them are berserk. Both peoples are locked into a struggle which will not end until the entire region is devastated. It's like two pitbulls locked in a death fight, both with their jaws on the throats of the other...

although in this case one dog is a whole lot more powerful then the other dog and the powerful dog has an 800 pound gorilla backing up their every move. but point well taken. as ive always said it comes down to an irrational approach to human interaction. not simply a religious or land conflict. as for it ending only when the region is devistated well that region has been devistated repeatedly over the eons. conflict has been the signature there long before islam or judaeism. it even predates the first walls of jericho. nomadic tribes in the area were throwing rocks at each other even in neolithic times.

[Sween]

Originally posted by Blackheart
You're all doomed...

This thread only proves it.

Terrorism is an old, old method of waging war. It's nothing new.
It wasn't invented by Muslims, nor really, have they actually improved on the methods....

What is new is the idea of nationalistic governments that are supposed to be able to control their populations. Which is patently absurd.

You can't see the real reasons for the conflict, because they aren't rational, or logical, or even what you might suppose...

There's a conflict because it's time for a conflict. The normal human mechanism for reducing overpopulation is war... Hate becomes a reflex. It's rooted in your genes.

Isreali will kill Palestinian and Palestinain will kill Isreali not because of land, or politics, or religion, or even revenge. They will do it because they are insane. They are caught up in a madness, from which they cannot escape.

They are all fey. (Fated to die soon/Full of the sense of approaching death.) Many of them are berserk. Both peoples are locked into a struggle which will not end until the entire region is devastated. It's like two pitbulls locked in a death fight, both with their jaws on the throats of the other...

And all you people can do is try to figure out who's ****ing fault it is.

Brilliant.

Assuming, for a second, that you somehow did figure out who was to blame, some aggregate of responsibility that somehow tipped the scales one way or the other, exactly what good would it do? Would it suddenly make all the deaths on both sides somehow mean something?

In case you missed it, I'll say it again.

You're all doomed...

Welll thats cheered me up no end

Now seriously we are not all doomed there is allways another way

[jerseydevil]

I guess based on your guys's posts we should just throw up our hands and say - "who cares, there will never be peace in the middle east" and walk away.

Europe also had constant wars since time began among themselves too. Granted not as serious as the way the Middle East is.

[Blackheart]

""who cares, there will never be peace in the middle east" and walk away. "

What makes you think it's going to stay confined to the middle east?

World War 1 was touched off by the assassination of a serbian ambassidor...

War is like an organism. Like a fire. It consumes until there isn't anything left to consume...

Humanity has been remarkably succesful recently in keeping things regulated to "limited-scale conflicts". Unfortunately it's like juggling nitro. You only have to drop one bottle...

If you think there couldn't be another war between European nations, or even within the US, I would ask that you examine the increasing incidence of fundamentalism and intolerance in both areas...

"although in this case one dog is a whole lot more powerful then the other dog and the powerful dog has an 800 pound gorilla backing up their every move"

I doubt the difference in funding and actual military equipment makes a real difference in the ability of either side to inflict misery on each other.

"as for it ending only when the region is devistated well that region has been devistated repeatedly over the eons. conflict has been the signature there long before islam or judaeism"

Rather my point, I think.... It's in your genes.

"Now seriously we are not all doomed there is allways another way"

Sure. Overcome your fear. Overcome your lemming-like "survival" instincts. Quit acting "humanely" or even human, and aim just a little bit higher...

But I sincerely doubt it's going to happen, because it has to happen collectively.

Should you just throw up your hands and give up on peace?

People, you already have...

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Blackheart
""who cares, there will never be peace in the middle east" and walk away. "

What makes you think it's going to stay confined to the middle east?

Unless you haven't noticed - it is NOT confined to the Middle East anymore. The attack on the Twin Towers and Washington - should have told you that. As well as the many other attacks around the world. We were first attacked in 1993 I believe - I think that was the first fanatical muslim terrorist attack on US soil.

I was just making a comment on your statement....

There's a conflict because it's time for a conflict. The normal human mechanism for reducing overpopulation is war... Hate becomes a reflex. It's rooted in your genes.

Isreali will kill Palestinian and Palestinain will kill Isreali not because of land, or politics, or religion, or even revenge. They will do it because they are insane. They are caught up in a madness, from which they cannot escape.

They are all fey. (Fated to die soon/Full of the sense of approaching death.) Many of them are berserk. Both peoples are locked into a struggle which will not end until the entire region is devastated. It's like two pitbulls locked in a death fight, both with their jaws on the throats of the other...

And all you people can do is try to figure out who's ****ing fault it is.

If you think there couldn't be another war between European nations, or even within the US, I would ask that you examine the increasing incidence of fundamentalism and intolerance in both areas...

I never said there couldn't be. Also - I suppose you didn't read all my statements in here - because I had also said - if Europe, particularly France and Germany, continue to go down the road they are - Europe will be split into two camps - the American allies and the Franco/German alliance. There will be renewed conflict between Europe and America - maybe not all out war - but it will be a cold war of distrust (which is already developing).

I doubt the difference in funding and actual military equipment makes a real difference in the ability of either side to inflict misery on each other.

So - it's just the fact that if israel wanted- it could rip apart the Palestinians with one massive attack. But THEY do NOT.

Rather my point, I think.... It's in your genes.

That's a bunch of bull. War itself and conflict is NOT in our genes.

Sure. Overcome your fear. Overcome your lemming-like "survival" instincts. Quit acting "humanely" or even human, and aim just a little bit higher...

Have you reached a "higher" power? When there is no fighting in the school yard, no bullying, no name calling, then I will believe there can be peace in the world. The world is just a big play ground - and anyone who has made fun of someone, picked a fight, left someone out of game because they thought they were a loser - is just as guilty of the many things people see when analyzing the conflicts around the world. The world is just the schoolyard on a larger scale.

But I sincerely doubt it's going to happen, because it has to happen collectively.

Should you just throw up your hands and give up on peace?

People, you already have...

No it is YOU who have thrown up YOUR hands - I still hope for a peace and understanding. I just happen to disagree about how to go about it.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Blackheart
""who cares, there will never be peace in the middle east" and walk away. "

What makes you think it's going to stay confined to the middle east?

World War 1 was touched off by the assassination of a serbian ambassidor...

War is like an organism. Like a fire. It consumes until there isn't anything left to consume...

Humanity has been remarkably succesful recently in keeping things regulated to "limited-scale conflicts". Unfortunately it's like juggling nitro. You only have to drop one bottle...

If you think there couldn't be another war between European nations, or even within the US, I would ask that you examine the increasing incidence of fundamentalism and intolerance in both areas...

"although in this case one dog is a whole lot more powerful then the other dog and the powerful dog has an 800 pound gorilla backing up their every move"

I doubt the difference in funding and actual military equipment makes a real difference in the ability of either side to inflict misery on each other.

"as for it ending only when the region is devistated well that region has been devistated repeatedly over the eons. conflict has been the signature there long before islam or judaeism"

Rather my point, I think.... It's in your genes.

"Now seriously we are not all doomed there is allways another way"

Sure. Overcome your fear. Overcome your lemming-like "survival" instincts. Quit acting "humanely" or even human, and aim just a little bit higher...

But I sincerely doubt it's going to happen, because it has to happen collectively.

Should you just throw up your hands and give up on peace?

People, you already have...

In that case we shouldn't say " "who cares, there will never be peace in the middle east" and walk away", we should say, "Who cares, there is no point to live" and suicide.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by jerseydevil

So - it's just the fact that if israel wanted- it could rip apart the Palestinians with one massive attack. But THEY do NOT.

they dont because they would become an instant global pariah if they were to try such a stunt. even the US would be hardpressed to support such an action.

That's a bunch of bull. War itself and conflict is NOT in our genes.

course it is. its also in the genes of chimpanzees and in the genes of ants and in a couple other species that engage in war. why do you find it so hard to believe that interspecies conflict could be a hard wired response in humans? theres a million biological reasons for it to be that way.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
they dont because they would become an instant global pariah if they were to try such a stunt. even the US would be hardpressed to support such an action.

Israel is already the pariahh in most of the world. The US is the only one that supports israel. Europe sides with the palestinians, as does most of the rest of the world.

course it is. its also in the genes of chimpanzees and in the genes of ants and in a couple other species that engage in war. why do you find it so hard to believe that interspecies conflict could be a hard wired response in humans? theres a million biological reasons for it to be that way.

Conflict itself is not in our genes. Otherwise - why put people in jail and so forth - if it's in their genes. They have no control over what they do. There are other things that are in our genes - but what you are saying is that we are born to kill our fellow man - which I do NOT believe. We do have the SURVIVAL instinct as do all animals. By the way - tell me which gene controls war? If it's in our genes - it should actually be in there. We have a desire to be number 1 - as do all animals. This is one of the reasons why the two largest and strongest countries in a region are usually the ones in conflict - why the two strongest boys are usually enemies on the playground or in school. Sometimes to do be number 1 - you resort to war and conflict - but war and conflict ITSELF are not in our genes I believe. It is a choice we MAKE to obtain what we WANT or DESIRE.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by jerseydevil

Conflict itself is not in our genes. Otherwise - why put people in jail and so forth - if it's in their genes. They have no control over what they do. There are other things that are in our genes - but what you are saying is that we are born to kill our fellow man - which I do NOT believe. We do have the SURVIVAL instinct as do all animals. By the way - tell me which gene controls war? If it's in our genes - it should actually be in there. We have a desire to be number 1 - as do all animals. This is one of the reasons why the two largest and strongest countries in a region are usually the ones in conflict. Sometimes to do be number 1 - you resort to war and conflict - but war and conflict ITSELF are not in our genes I believe. It is a choice we MAKE to obtain what we WANT or DESIRE.

There are very powerful genetically based psychological influences going on here that you apparently are over looking. The simple fact that you can get angry because you feel threatened or persecuted or that you are the victim of self conceived injustice should be enough to show you that conflict is one way our species tends to resolve its problems. and organized conflict is by definition war. Yes we ARE born to kill our fellow man if need be. Not in a mindless casual way of course but the ability and the instinct IS THERE when needed. To deny this is simply denying who we are as a species. I once read a paper on the mathematics of war. The premise was that its kinda like weather. Its really hard to forecast but theres a distinct mathematical/biological prediction factor involved. And chaos theory has a good grip on how war will play itself out in populations.

For the most part war always seems to come down to either territory (resources) or self preservation. It is no coincidence that other warring animal species go to war for the EXACT same reasons: because two populations are in conflict over the same territory or resource OR because one population feels the only way they can survive is to resort to organized conflict. Both aptly describe in a real basic way what is and has been going on in the middle east for the past 5000 years or more. And asking me to show you the gene that controls war is a ridiculous red herring and you know it. Yer smart enough to know basically how genetics works and that its quite a bit more complicated then that. Its not like having blonde hair or something. Show me the gene that tells us to love or to idealize and Ill show you the one that tells us to resort to conflict.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
There are very powerful genetically based psychological influences going on here that you apparently are over looking. The simple fact that you can get angry because you feel threatened or persecuted or that you are the victim of self conceived injustice should be enough to show you that conflict is one way our species tends to resolve its problems. and organized conflict is by definition war. Yes we ARE born to kill our fellow man if need be. Not in a mindless casual way of course but the ability and the instinct IS THERE when needed. To deny this is simply denying who we are as a species. I once read a paper on the mathematics of war. The premise was that its kinda like weather. Its really hard to forecast but theres a distinct mathematical/biological prediction factor involved. And chaos theory has a good grip on how war will play itself out in populations.

I'm not denying that we have the CAPIBILITY ot kill our fellow man. I'm saying that it is not a genetic disposition TO kill your fellow man. The killing is a means to an end. The genetic part is the 'wanting" and "desires". You yourself say that it is not in a "mindless casual way". But if it was genetic - then it would be MINDLESS. We have no control over our genes and therefore our brain would have no part in the decision to kill someone or wage war.

For the most part war always seems to come down to either territory (resources) or self preservation. It is no coincidence that other warring animal species go to war for the EXACT same reasons: because two populations are in conflict over the same territory or resource OR because one population feels the only way they can survive is to resort to organized conflict. Both aptly describe in a real basic way what is and has been going on in the middle east for the past 5000 years or more. And asking me to show you the gene that controls war is a ridiculous red herring and you know it. Yer smart enough to know basically how genetics works and that its quite a bit more complicated then that. Its not like having blonde hair or something. Show me the gene that tells us to love or to idealize and Ill show you the one that tells us to resort to conflict.

Which is the part where instinct and geens come into play - not the killing part. We do have the fight or flight instinct - about again - that is solely our preservation instinct. Most animals fight for territory, for sex, etc. But no creature kills for the pure joy of it - which woudl be a genetic thing.

[Blackheart]

" I think that was the first fanatical muslim terrorist attack on US soil. / I was just making a comment on your statement...."

As I was sure you were, and I'm just as sure you realized that my comment was ironic.




"Also - I suppose you didn't read all my statements in here - because I had also said - if Europe, particularly France and /etc"

No I didn't. Because the where-to-fors and what-nots of politics behind the conflicts and such aren't what I am primarily concerned about. It is the root casue of such conflict. Political specifics aren't germane to what I'm talking about.

The point about the rise of intolerance in Europe and the US was merely an illustration of the point that it is rising worldwide...

"So - it's just the fact that if israel wanted- it could rip apart the Palestinians with one massive attack. But THEY do NOT."

On this I must ask for evidence. Or as you like to put it, "I cry Bullshit!" The results of such an action would either be a Guerilla war of such intensity that it would make Veitnam look like a flash in the pan, or a wholesale invasion by the United Nations to prevent Genocide by the Israelis.

"That's a bunch of bull. War itself and conflict is NOT in our genes."

I would refer you to studies basing the marked cross-cultural preference of women for "warriors" as mating partners. After you examine those, we can discuss this bull that seems to be squatting in your yard...

"Have you reached a "higher" power? "

No man. I AM a higher power. Keep applying logic all you want to irrational, illogical sitations, and you'll run right up agains the limits of logic and rationality. To fail to recognize this is "illogical, Captain".

"When there is no fighting in the school yard, no bullying, no name calling, then I will believe there can be peace in the world. The world is just a big play ground - and anyone who has made fun of someone, picked a fight, left someone out of game because they thought they were a loser - is just as guilty of the many things people see when analyzing the conflicts around the world. The world is just the schoolyard on a larger scale."

Thank you for reinforcing my point about the genetics of humnanity. Oh, and the subsidiary point that you are all doomed.

"No it is YOU who have thrown up YOUR hands - I still hope for a peace and understanding. I just happen to disagree about how to go about it."

I know you are but what am I. No you did it! I don't suppose that it might enter your mind that the way to approach certain problems is by using counter-intuitive strategies... Especially since intuition is generally driven by instinct.

Lets hear your grand plan for peace? More soldiers? More security? More restrictions? More assassinations?

Sometimes more=less

[Blackheart]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
In that case we shouldn't say " "who cares, there will never be peace in the middle east" and walk away", we should say, "Who cares, there is no point to live" and suicide.

Despair isn't a very productive emotion either you know...

That's one of the driving features of the Palestinian suicide bombers... They are in fact comiting suicide, and murder, out of hatred driven by despair.

No, I didn't advocate suicide, I advocated surrender...

Until both sides recognize that they cannot win, and they do in fact "give up" and "walk away" the conflict will go on and on and on.

[Blackheart]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
course it is. its also in the genes of chimpanzees and in the genes of ants and in a couple other species that engage in war. why do you find it so hard to believe that interspecies conflict could be a hard wired response in humans? theres a million biological reasons for it to be that way.

Mr. Rex is of course correct to a point.

Ants, and chimps don't actually engage in war, so much as they engage in violence to secure resources. The definition is fuzzy, but does nothing to dull his point.

It must be because he's only quasi evil...

[Blackheart]

"I'm not denying that we have the CAPIBILITY ot kill our fellow man. I'm saying that it is not a genetic disposition TO kill your fellow man. The killing is a means to an end. The genetic part is the 'wanting" and "desires". You yourself say that it is not in a "mindless casual way". But if it was genetic - then it would be MINDLESS. We have no control over our genes and therefore our brain would have no part in the decision to kill someone or wage war"

I disagree most whole-heartedly. It is indeed mindless. You don't really want to think about it. But you do it because you have to. The better you do it, the better your descendants will do it.

Lets face it, by the time you get to the point where the shooting starts, the other choices have gone out the window. As they always seem to do....

You really shouldn't be thinking about it from the point of view as to why are humans hard-wired for conflict, but why they aren't MORE hard-wired for peaceful solutions?

It's all the womens fault

They dig the uniforms.

Oh. I just had to respond to this: "But no creature kills for the pure joy of it - which woudl be a genetic thing."

Uh. <raises hand> Humans do. (I had the dubious pleasure of meeting a few such individuals).

Humans are also the only creatures who truely wage war also, as opposed to resource conflicts...

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
But if it was genetic - then it would be MINDLESS. We have no control over our genes and therefore our brain would have no part in the decision to kill someone or wage war.

oh dear no. our brain IS a product of our genes. By definition. We exhibit complex yet still predictable behavior patterns because of genetic input filtered through said brain. Genes do NOT just control unconscious things like breathing and heart beat and hunger urges and reproduction urges. Genes set the boundries. And we take it from there. Organized conflict is well within the bounds of aggressive innate behavior that can be traced to our genetic make up as humans.

Never allow yourself to forget that everything we do as humans is either directly or indirectly tied to a genetic root. Just because we wear pants and make art and read the wall street journal doesn’t mean we are any different then those other creatures that don’t “think”. Its easy to assume we are above this especially if you are a religious person but since you aren’t I would assume it’s a little easier for you to keep focus of our non specialness as a species. We are naked apes and we act accordingly. War (or organized conflict) is normal behavior in many primates im afraid.

Which is the part where instinct and geens come into play - not the killing part. We do have the fight or flight instinct - about again - that is solely our preservation instinct. Most animals fight for territory, for sex, etc. But no creature kills for the pure joy of it - which woudl be a genetic thing.

why would that be a genetic thing? It would serve no genetic purpose to just kill for the heck of it. It would never survive as a successful trait. It would be much too much of a danger and you would gain nothing from it. So genetically it would be pointless. BUT if killing another person allows you to better yourself and thus makes it more likely to pass on your genes then this becomes a logical evolutionary step. Don’t you agree? If the net benefit is high then youll see it in nature. Also: keep in mind here that war is not JUST killing people. It’s a complex chain of behaviors. Its aggression both false and real (bluff aggression and actual violence). Then if that doesn’t work its pack behavior and hierarchy behavior (read army command structure) which helps us justify doing things like torture and killing which are hard to justify to ourselves on our own. In a group setting where there is peer pressure and peer identity its easier. There is also the flight or fight instinct you spoke of. And this is usually the final step. adrenoline builds and we see our only choice is to attack or run. Some run but many attack and the end result: killing. Package this all up and its called WAR

* singing *
what is it GOOD for. Absolutely nothing… good god!