10-19-2003, 10:01 PM | #261 |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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By the way Percy - who here said that "Israel was good" and "Palistine was evil"? Of course Palestine doesn't exist so it should be "Palestinians". But now has said "The Palestinians are evil" either. I hope you don't mean on this board - because no one has said that here.
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10-19-2003, 10:17 PM | #262 |
Enting
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Indeed, JD, I was referring to no one in particular.
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10-20-2003, 02:31 AM | #263 | |
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As JD said, Isabel is a good example on how the press exaggerates things and make them more dramatic than they are. Someone said here several pages ago that the European media tend to be biased in favour of the Palestinians in the Middle east conflict, and the American media tend to be biased in favour of the Israelis. I can only speak for what I see in Norwegian media, and it is true that they mostly take on the Palesinian view.
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10-20-2003, 07:19 AM | #264 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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I think the media has a lot -perhaps a little too much- influence on how we see other people. Of course it's often the only way to know more about other countries and cultures. One cannot expect everybody to know other people personally on the other side of the world. It's also very difficult, I think, to bring all aspects of another culture, land or conflict on screen or on paper. Sometimes things can be so bloody complicated that every more simplistic rendering can give an entirely wrong image. And then there is of course the thing that complete objectivity is near impossible. Everybody has his or her own perception of things. Which is not necesarily a bad thing, but it can give birth to different kinds of 'thruths'. All news is biased in some way I fear, be them European or American or other. And now I'm not blaming the media for doing it on purpose, but it's incredibly hard to tell about often complicated things without looking at things from your point of view, your own culture. And it's not necesarily a thankful job.
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10-20-2003, 01:31 PM | #265 |
Elf Lord
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You're all doomed...
This thread only proves it. Terrorism is an old, old method of waging war. It's nothing new. It wasn't invented by Muslims, nor really, have they actually improved on the methods.... What is new is the idea of nationalistic governments that are supposed to be able to control their populations. Which is patently absurd. You can't see the real reasons for the conflict, because they aren't rational, or logical, or even what you might suppose... There's a conflict because it's time for a conflict. The normal human mechanism for reducing overpopulation is war... Hate becomes a reflex. It's rooted in your genes. Isreali will kill Palestinian and Palestinain will kill Isreali not because of land, or politics, or religion, or even revenge. They will do it because they are insane. They are caught up in a madness, from which they cannot escape. They are all fey. (Fated to die soon/Full of the sense of approaching death.) Many of them are berserk. Both peoples are locked into a struggle which will not end until the entire region is devastated. It's like two pitbulls locked in a death fight, both with their jaws on the throats of the other... And all you people can do is try to figure out who's ****ing fault it is. Brilliant. Assuming, for a second, that you somehow did figure out who was to blame, some aggregate of responsibility that somehow tipped the scales one way or the other, exactly what good would it do? Would it suddenly make all the deaths on both sides somehow mean something? In case you missed it, I'll say it again. You're all doomed...
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
10-20-2003, 01:39 PM | #266 | |
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10-20-2003, 01:42 PM | #267 | |
im quite stupid
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Now seriously we are not all doomed there is allways another way
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10-20-2003, 01:44 PM | #268 |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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I guess based on your guys's posts we should just throw up our hands and say - "who cares, there will never be peace in the middle east" and walk away.
Europe also had constant wars since time began among themselves too. Granted not as serious as the way the Middle East is.
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10-20-2003, 02:09 PM | #269 |
Elf Lord
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""who cares, there will never be peace in the middle east" and walk away. "
What makes you think it's going to stay confined to the middle east? World War 1 was touched off by the assassination of a serbian ambassidor... War is like an organism. Like a fire. It consumes until there isn't anything left to consume... Humanity has been remarkably succesful recently in keeping things regulated to "limited-scale conflicts". Unfortunately it's like juggling nitro. You only have to drop one bottle... If you think there couldn't be another war between European nations, or even within the US, I would ask that you examine the increasing incidence of fundamentalism and intolerance in both areas... "although in this case one dog is a whole lot more powerful then the other dog and the powerful dog has an 800 pound gorilla backing up their every move" I doubt the difference in funding and actual military equipment makes a real difference in the ability of either side to inflict misery on each other. "as for it ending only when the region is devistated well that region has been devistated repeatedly over the eons. conflict has been the signature there long before islam or judaeism" Rather my point, I think.... It's in your genes. "Now seriously we are not all doomed there is allways another way" Sure. Overcome your fear. Overcome your lemming-like "survival" instincts. Quit acting "humanely" or even human, and aim just a little bit higher... But I sincerely doubt it's going to happen, because it has to happen collectively. Should you just throw up your hands and give up on peace? People, you already have...
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
10-20-2003, 02:31 PM | #270 | |||||||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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I was just making a comment on your statement.... Quote:
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 10-20-2003 at 02:39 PM. |
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10-20-2003, 02:33 PM | #271 | |
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10-20-2003, 02:40 PM | #272 | ||
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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10-20-2003, 02:54 PM | #273 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 10-20-2003 at 02:58 PM. |
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10-20-2003, 03:47 PM | #274 | |
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For the most part war always seems to come down to either territory (resources) or self preservation. It is no coincidence that other warring animal species go to war for the EXACT same reasons: because two populations are in conflict over the same territory or resource OR because one population feels the only way they can survive is to resort to organized conflict. Both aptly describe in a real basic way what is and has been going on in the middle east for the past 5000 years or more. And asking me to show you the gene that controls war is a ridiculous red herring and you know it. Yer smart enough to know basically how genetics works and that its quite a bit more complicated then that. Its not like having blonde hair or something. Show me the gene that tells us to love or to idealize and Ill show you the one that tells us to resort to conflict.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 10-20-2003 at 03:48 PM. |
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10-20-2003, 03:58 PM | #275 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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10-20-2003, 04:55 PM | #276 |
Elf Lord
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" I think that was the first fanatical muslim terrorist attack on US soil. / I was just making a comment on your statement...."
As I was sure you were, and I'm just as sure you realized that my comment was ironic. "Also - I suppose you didn't read all my statements in here - because I had also said - if Europe, particularly France and /etc" No I didn't. Because the where-to-fors and what-nots of politics behind the conflicts and such aren't what I am primarily concerned about. It is the root casue of such conflict. Political specifics aren't germane to what I'm talking about. The point about the rise of intolerance in Europe and the US was merely an illustration of the point that it is rising worldwide... "So - it's just the fact that if israel wanted- it could rip apart the Palestinians with one massive attack. But THEY do NOT." On this I must ask for evidence. Or as you like to put it, "I cry Bullshit!" The results of such an action would either be a Guerilla war of such intensity that it would make Veitnam look like a flash in the pan, or a wholesale invasion by the United Nations to prevent Genocide by the Israelis. "That's a bunch of bull. War itself and conflict is NOT in our genes." I would refer you to studies basing the marked cross-cultural preference of women for "warriors" as mating partners. After you examine those, we can discuss this bull that seems to be squatting in your yard... "Have you reached a "higher" power? " No man. I AM a higher power. Keep applying logic all you want to irrational, illogical sitations, and you'll run right up agains the limits of logic and rationality. To fail to recognize this is "illogical, Captain". "When there is no fighting in the school yard, no bullying, no name calling, then I will believe there can be peace in the world. The world is just a big play ground - and anyone who has made fun of someone, picked a fight, left someone out of game because they thought they were a loser - is just as guilty of the many things people see when analyzing the conflicts around the world. The world is just the schoolyard on a larger scale." Thank you for reinforcing my point about the genetics of humnanity. Oh, and the subsidiary point that you are all doomed. "No it is YOU who have thrown up YOUR hands - I still hope for a peace and understanding. I just happen to disagree about how to go about it." I know you are but what am I. No you did it! I don't suppose that it might enter your mind that the way to approach certain problems is by using counter-intuitive strategies... Especially since intuition is generally driven by instinct. Lets hear your grand plan for peace? More soldiers? More security? More restrictions? More assassinations? Sometimes more=less
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
10-20-2003, 04:59 PM | #277 | |
Elf Lord
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That's one of the driving features of the Palestinian suicide bombers... They are in fact comiting suicide, and murder, out of hatred driven by despair. No, I didn't advocate suicide, I advocated surrender... Until both sides recognize that they cannot win, and they do in fact "give up" and "walk away" the conflict will go on and on and on.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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10-20-2003, 05:04 PM | #278 | |
Elf Lord
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Ants, and chimps don't actually engage in war, so much as they engage in violence to secure resources. The definition is fuzzy, but does nothing to dull his point. It must be because he's only quasi evil...
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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10-20-2003, 05:11 PM | #279 |
Elf Lord
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"I'm not denying that we have the CAPIBILITY ot kill our fellow man. I'm saying that it is not a genetic disposition TO kill your fellow man. The killing is a means to an end. The genetic part is the 'wanting" and "desires". You yourself say that it is not in a "mindless casual way". But if it was genetic - then it would be MINDLESS. We have no control over our genes and therefore our brain would have no part in the decision to kill someone or wage war"
I disagree most whole-heartedly. It is indeed mindless. You don't really want to think about it. But you do it because you have to. The better you do it, the better your descendants will do it. Lets face it, by the time you get to the point where the shooting starts, the other choices have gone out the window. As they always seem to do.... You really shouldn't be thinking about it from the point of view as to why are humans hard-wired for conflict, but why they aren't MORE hard-wired for peaceful solutions? It's all the womens fault They dig the uniforms. Oh. I just had to respond to this: "But no creature kills for the pure joy of it - which woudl be a genetic thing." Uh. <raises hand> Humans do. (I had the dubious pleasure of meeting a few such individuals). Humans are also the only creatures who truely wage war also, as opposed to resource conflicts...
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... Last edited by Blackheart : 10-20-2003 at 05:16 PM. |
10-20-2003, 05:11 PM | #280 | ||
Quasi Evil
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Never allow yourself to forget that everything we do as humans is either directly or indirectly tied to a genetic root. Just because we wear pants and make art and read the wall street journal doesn’t mean we are any different then those other creatures that don’t “think”. Its easy to assume we are above this especially if you are a religious person but since you aren’t I would assume it’s a little easier for you to keep focus of our non specialness as a species. We are naked apes and we act accordingly. War (or organized conflict) is normal behavior in many primates im afraid. Quote:
* singing * what is it GOOD for. Absolutely nothing… good god!
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 10-20-2003 at 05:13 PM. |
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