Muslims

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Percy Weasley
Runiel,

I am truly sorry that I am coming across that way - it is not my intention. I am far from being a callous person.

I hope you are not.

[b]Israel has suffered a great deal in this crisis.... you have to agree that the Palestinians have suffered also! I am not looking at what is best for Israel alone, but what is best for all humanity. Everyone involved, Israelis and Palestinians alike are human beings.

Yes, the Palestinians have also suffered. Until I saw them celebrating in the streets after 9/11, I had empathy for them. I no longer do. They have brought the actions that Israel has taken on themselves. If the Palestinians would not tollerate, nor celebrate the murders, there would be less. And perhaps there would be more "sympathy" for them from the rest of the world. But they encourage them, celebrate their crimes, and give them refuge from the authorities. I can't feel sorry for them any longer.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Percy Weasley
I do not think I should respond again until the tempers that have flared have cooled.

I'm not angry or irrational - I just think that your idea to bring peace to the palestinian/israeli conflict is simplestic and narrowminded - like Hobbit said. I think there are some people who just refuse to negotiate no matter what.

Oh - and I guess there has been another tape from bin Ladin calling on renewed attacks against Americans and the West.

[Percy Weasley]

*sighs sadly*

You should not base your opinion of a country on something like that. Do you know how few of them actually celebrated? And Arafat condemned the action, if you remember correctly, and sent his condolences to our government.

So many people base their opinions of people on the actions of the minority...it's like basing your opinion of Christianity on the actions of the Ku Klux Klan.

[Falagar]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Well then let's just invite them in then. Come on over - it's israeli hunting season. We can issue Israeli Hunting licenses to the terrorists - this will enable you to kill one pregnant woman, 5 children, 3 women and 3 men. Maybe part of the deal can be that they have to give 24 hour notice on their attacks. or maybe we can set up israelis and just ask them to be terrorist fodder.

I'm just curious as to what you think the results will be if Israel stops responding? The terrorists have repeatedly STATED that they want the elimination of Israel - nothing less will suffice.

It is possible to defend without attacking.

I think I'll stop responding to this thread too - not because I've got nothing to say, but because I don't want to continue this. It's not going to end good, and I fear that I'll lose some friends because of a little argument.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ruinel
If the Palestinians would not tollerate, nor celebrate the murders, there would be less. And perhaps there would be more "sympathy" for them from the rest of the world.

Actually - most of Europe supports the palestinian side. America is pretty much Israel's only ally.

[Percy Weasley]

Simplistic and narrow minded?

I do not think I should comment further, as I may lose my temper.

I think I am going to follow Falagar's example, and duck out of this thread before it gets out of hand.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Percy Weasley
Runiel

That post was not addressed to you, but to Hobbit. I am sorry for the confusion. I have not accused you of attacking me, nor do I think you have.

Neither have I ever said that Israel should not take legal action against the Palestinians. Legal action and military action are two completely seperate things.

I fear I have myself in over my head here - I did not mean to inadverdently offend you.

uh... *rapidly shifts eyes*.. oops!

BTW, I'm not offended. Welcome to the mine field of Entmoot. Watch the shrapnel.

I'm off. I'm going out tonight and I have to get ready. Post all you want, but watch out for that Jersey Devil guy, he's quite fast with the posts.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Percy Weasley
You should not base your opinion of a country on something like that. Do you know how few of them actually celebrated? And Arafat condemned the action, if you remember correctly, and sent his condolences to our government.

Arafat REPEATEDLY condemns - but how many arrests have there been? The Palestinian ministers who are put into place even quit because they say he will not give them the control necessary to bring aobut peace or to go after the terrorists. Sorry - but action speak louder than words - and all Arafat has ever given to peace - is lip service/

So many people base their opinions of people on the actions of the minority...it's like basing your opinion of Christianity on the actions of the Ku Klux Klan.

The thing is - when Klux Klan members march - they are in the minority - because there is a HUGE crowd denouncing them. Last year - a klu klux klan from the south tried to have a demonstration in Morristown - he was drowned out by the crowd who were against him. His only supporter on the stage with him - walked off because he saw it was a lost cause. Where are the Palestinian majority you claim exists that do this against the supporters of the terrorists? Why aren't they shouting down the hatred in the mosques and in the schools?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Percy Weasley
Simplistic and narrow minded?

Yes - I find your cure for the israeli/palestinian conflict VERY simplistic and I also feel it is very narrow minded. You are askiing innocent people to just allow themselves to be blown up. To me - that is narrow minded. Would you allow your family to be blown up or killed?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Falagar
It is possible to defend without attacking.

Did you read any of the links I provided? One explained the military aspects of the israeli/palestinian conflict. Why it is impossible for israel to just be in a defensive position.

I think I'll stop responding to this thread too - not because I've got nothing to say, but because I don't want to continue this. It's not going to end good, and I fear that I'll lose some friends because of a little argument.

Sorry to see you go. Even though I disagree with you on this - I wouldn't dislike you over it. It's a difference of opinion.

[Sister Golden Hair]

ADMIN NOTE- I realize that this is a loaded thread. So far, aside from straying off topic here and there, the posters have conducted themselves admirably. I am noticing a bit of personal remarks made toward individual posters. Not attacks, but just disagreements. Let's try not to get to personal. I understand that this is a thread capable also of branching out in a million directions. Try to stay as much on topic as possible. I realize that tempers are on edge. Control yourselves and post with a cool head. I am sorry to see some of you leave the thread. Your input has and still can be beneficial to the discussion. .

[azalea]

Thanks for responding to my post, Radagast (and JD). So I guess I had it wrong -- are there NO Palestinians still living in Isreal? In the territory in dispute -- do the Isrealis still consider it theirs, but there are Palestinians living there? I guess that's what I meant when I said they could put a few of them in the parliament (or whatever the body is that decides the rules or action to be taken), is that way they would have representation in the government (but that's only if there are any living in Isreal, and the disputed territory that Isreal considers to still belong to Isreal, unless they intend to give it up and let it be a sovreign state?).
But then I agree that there isn't a big popular push for peace on the side of the Palestinians, because if there were, as has been stated, the suicide bombings would stop or at least be greatly reduced. Because this is not the case, that is the reason we assume that they don't WANT peace. I feel that if people disagree with a situation to the point that they find it intolerable, they will speak out or do something drastic in order to effect change. Otherwise, it must not be so bad, or they must agree with the methods being used (in this case, suicide bombers).

[Radagast The Brown]

originally posted by Percy Weasley
Secondly, yes, I do believe that the bombings would stop, it would just take patience. It might not happen in a week, even a month, or even a year, but it would happen. Why? Because Palestine would be forced by international pressure to stop. The Arab world would be furious because Israel's refusal to respond to the attacks would give them the moral high ground in the eyes of the world as long as the Palestinians continued with the violence. The Western world would be furious at the Palestinians for attacking a peaceful state. Even those countries refusing to take sides right now would be forced to condemn the actions of a state that attacks an innocent victim. But it would take patience, and likely a great deal of it. Lives would be lost, yes, but no more (likely less) than would be lost if this war continues ad infinitum as it seems to be headed now.

It is time for someone to do something different. It is sad to see that neither side is brave enough to break the cycle of violence.

Ok. Let say that there would be more 50 kills in a year, like 500 instead of 450. Do you suggest to let the palestinians kill? When you can prevent the murder? Because you want Europe the other countries in the world to support Israel?
Oh, and you think international pressure will stop terrorism? How exactly? Maybe the leader would try to catch the terrorists, buyt they may be stronger then him.
[quote][b]You should not base your opinion of a country on something like that. Do you know how few of them actually celebrated? And Arafat condemned the action, if you remember correctly, and sent his condolences to our government.

Thanks for responding to my post, Radagast (and JD). So I guess I had it wrong -- are there NO Palestinians still living in Isreal? In the territory in dispute -- do the Isrealis still consider it theirs, but there are Palestinians living there? I guess that's what I meant when I said they could put a few of them in the parliament (or whatever the body is that decides the rules or action to be taken), is that way they would have representation in the government (but that's only if there are any living in Isreal, and the disputed territory that Isreal considers to still belong to Isreal, unless they intend to give it up and let it be a sovreign state?).

There are arabs, there aren't palestinians (except maybe in east Jerusalem). Israel want some parts of the eastern bank, that are jewish right now, without palestinians in there.
There are arabs in the parliament, but none in the goverment. The prime minister suppose to assemble the parties he wants to be with in the goverment. Sharon's party have 40 places in the parliament. The Avoda - the biggest oppssition party - have 19. The arabs are in the opposition. The goverment is the coalition.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
In school now all the teachers are saying that Jihad is not a holy war and has nothing to with war...im like ...what????

All things you listed have to do wtih war, etc.

I forget what a teachers have said it is, but it was not that.

If they want to teach us about Islam, they should reall do it instead of making up stuff.

I think JD has a point when he says parts of the Western world tend to hide the unpleasant things about Islam in order to be politically correct.

I would say your teachers are wrong when they say jihad has nothing to do with war. It is true that the word 'jihad' means 'struggle', but there are various interpretations what's the goal of the struggle, and what means are considered allowed to reach that goal. I've mentioned just a few.

Why do all these religious fanatics seem to be a majority in the Arab world?

'Seem to be' is the key. I do not believe they are a majority. It is the fanatics we hear about in media, because they're the ones who act like terrorists. The majority of peaceful muslims aren't good news.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Artanis
... The majority of peaceful muslims aren't good news.

That is true. It's a shame that the good things about Muslims are overshadowed by the terrible things that a few have committed.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ruinel
That is true. It's a shame that the good things about Muslims are overshadowed by the terrible things that a few have committed.

But our, both national and local NJ and NY, media has gone out of there way to show "good" muslims and the Islamic religion. it doesn't over shadow the fact the most vocal destroy all the other news.

It's like the stuff going on in Iraq - Nightline had a thing about all the good stuff going on there - because they said everyday there is a bombing or something - and none of the good things can get reported. The bombings - although relatively isolated - take over the news cast. So instead - they took some time out to talk about the new schools, the water, electricity, the new businesses in Baghdad that have opened up, etc.

[Percy Weasley]

This makes me wonder how the media portrays the United States in the rest of the world. Could their opinion of us be as biased and inaccurate as ours is of them, simply because the press has a bad habit of only printing that which is "Newsworthy?"

I can only imagine the things about the United States that make world news...not signing the Kyoto accords...the fiasco with the 2000 election...hate crimes...the things that make news are simply not the things you really want your country known for...

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Percy Weasley
This makes me wonder how the media portrays the United States in the rest of the world. Could their opinion of us be as biased and inaccurate as ours is of them, simply because the press has a bad habit of only printing that which is "Newsworthy?"

of course it is. We live in a dream world if we think we have a clear perspective on things here but they have things totally screwed up. everyone sees things through filters. 90% of the comments in this thread prove it. looking at Fox or MSNBC with a skeptical eye proves it too. and you can be sure theres manipulation of facts and bias of focus at both Aljazeera and at the Jerusalem News (only Israeli paper I know of so just using as example). We all see the world through a cultural lense that is shaped by what we expect to see. very few people have the ability to resist this lense and see the world as it is in all its shades of grey and interconnected dependence. the news tells us its black and white and we believe it.

[Percy Weasley]

I agree completely, and I think losing the shades of grey in our perspectives is perhaps the most dangerous thing that can happen to the world.

In this thread, I see words like "good" and "evil" bandied around with alarming frequency.

People assert that "Israel is good; Palestine is evil," or "America is the Great Satan and Radical Islam is the only thing that can save the world." All of these statements are false. I do not believe in good and evil, because both good elements and bad elements exist in all things.

It seems that the world is desperate to sort things into little cardboard two-dimensional boxes, because it is easier for them to do. But it overlooks and oversimplifies far too much! Sure, if they're evil, kill them, it's the right thing to do. That's caused problems both for Americans and for the Radical Islamic terrorists. We assume they're evil, they assume we're evil, and therefore "God" is on their side if they kill us, after all, we're just saving the world from the dark side, right?

The truth is that it is far more complicated than that. Everyone is a product of their environment, and the attitudes you grow up hearing around you can be very hard to live down. Whether it is true or not, many of these people have grown up believing that America and Israel are the cause of all their suffering and miseries, and when someone tells you something enough times, you're likely to start believing it. That doesn't make these people evil, only desperate and misinformed.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Percy Weasley
This makes me wonder how the media portrays the United States in the rest of the world. Could their opinion of us be as biased and inaccurate as ours is of them, simply because the press has a bad habit of only printing that which is "Newsworthy?"

I watch French news every night at 7:00 - Le Journal which is a local French channel that gets rebroadcast on WNYE. Last month there was a bin Ladin tape that came out - and the US was was still authenticating it. Instead of reporting that it was being authenticated - they said that the US was trying to "disprove the tape".

I can only imagine the things about the United States that make world news...not signing the Kyoto accords...the fiasco with the 2000 election...hate crimes...the things that make news are simply not the things you really want your country known for...

It was funny with the French news also- with the California elections - they said that Arnold Schwarzenegger did terrible in the debates and kept talking over everyone. I had seen the debates and he wasn't - but they had pieced together the debate so it made it look like he was very argumentative. Unless you had actually seen the debate live - you would not have known that they weren't telling the truth.

Another example was during Hurricane Isabelle - they had reported that it was being called the Hurricane of the century (this was as it was hitting land). I lived through the hurricane to a point and my cousin who had lived through it in Alexandria Virginia - we know it was never called that here. Actually it was the exact opposite - we were very glad it had reduced it's strenght so much and wasn't the category 4 or 5 that it had been the day before. As soon as it hit landfall it had become a tropical storm.