Muslims

[jerseydevil]

Other info -

"Peace Camp" Draws Palestinian, Israeli Youths
YOUTH PROGRAM STUDY GUIDE: I AM -YOU ARE
VOICES OF HOPE AND SEEDS OF PEACE - PBS
Gush Shalom Does have pictures with Israeli demonstrations supporting the Israeli pilots who refused to go on air missions. Where are all the Palestinians marching in the streets to speak out against the terrorists?
Yehoo Directory on Palestinian/Israeli Relations Organizations

I STRONGLY support Seeds of Peace and have included links to their website from day one in my posts. Here it is again - Seeds of Peace


Side link -
ISRAEL'S MILITARY DILEMMA

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Percy Weasley


I would appreciate that you not patronize me, JD, as I am an educated adult. I am not a pimpled twelve year old drooling over actors, but someone who reads the daily news and listens to NPR at least three hours a day. I would appreciate it if you would take my opinions seriously. It would do a lot for this debate.

Where have I patronized YOU? I haven't responded to anything you have said since last night?

[Falagar]

Now that is a loaded statement. How can you say that? Not a lot have internet access that is true - but to say that they have probably never read Tolkien is to me somewhat bigotted. Why wouldn't they read Tolkien?

I don't know wether they have read anything by Tolkien or not, but I'm member of many Tolkien-foruma (about 7 or 8 english speaking ones), and haven't met many Palestinians (though of course not everyone have said where they live so I can't really know.). It was just a feeling I had.

[jerseydevil]

By the way - Percey - I take your opinions seriously - I just don't happen to agree with all of them. If you can point out today where I made a comment directed at YOU where I was patronizing - I would appreciate it. Especially since it was back and forth yesterday and you didn't say anything about me being pstronizing. I also did not respond to your last comment on the board where you said you were going to bed. So as far as today goes - I have NOT directed any comments in your direction - patronizing or otherwise - until now.

[LutraMage]

This is a tiny and beautiful planet. In the eternity of space it is, so far as we know, the only planet with life. It is so small, so insignificant in its celestrial home, and yet, the very existance of intelligent life makes it the most significant planet we know. Muslim, Christian, Jew, Buddist, Humanist, Anostic, Atheist - does it matter?

Everyone is entitled to their view. Every religion has produced evil, arogant, selfish and greedy people (and many non-religious people have fallen into that category too). Equally, every religion has produced decent, kind, caring and loving people - the Muslim faith just as much so as any other. Those who judge all Muslims by the scum that terrorise and hate are themselves guilty of mindless hate.

Edmund Burke said

All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to stand by and do nothing

It is the job of all good men to realise that we should judge people as individuals, not by the colour of their skin, their religious beliefs or any other quality of human diversity. A good and decent Muslim person is a good and decent person, the same as any Christian. The Inquisition was led by barbaric and evil Christians, that doesn't make all Christians barbaric and evil - the same goes for Muslims, who are not responsible for the evil carried out in their name.

[Percy Weasley]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
And when laying down your arms only brings more bombings and killings - as was DEMONSTRATED when israel did start to dismantle the settlements and checkpoints?

I guess Europe should have just laid down their arms during World War II.

The post in question is above...

There is a good chance I misinterpreted, but I found the last statement rather patronizing.

However, as I have stated elsewhere on the board, my brain is currently enjoying a transformation into some interesting type of cheese, so my perception may not be as clear as it usually is.

No harm done, JD, and I apologize if I misunderstood.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by azalea
I'm not familiar with Isreal's governmental structure, but do they have a Senate like ours?

They have a parlimentary system - but other than that - Radagast will have to explain the structure of the Israeli government.

I mean, couldn't they somehow appoint a few Palestinians to posts in their gov., so that they'd have a voice there that could take comments from "the people" and then translate that into legislation that would allow the peace process to move forward?

Do you think that the Middle Eastern and Palestinian governments will put some Jews into government posts to briung understanding and peace? How can you bring peace - if there is a STRONG group that refuses to accept any peace. This is the reason I disagree with Percey's feeling that Israel should just lay down it's arms. Every time they attempt to - another suicide bomber hits. Why aren't the Palestinians rooting out the terrorists like so many Israelis have come out in support of the pilots who refused to go on those missions?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Percy Weasley
There is a good chance I misinterpreted, but I found the last statement rather patronizing.

It wasn't meant to be. My point was just what would have happened to Europe if they laid down their arms? Hitler would have have just rolled in and conquered all of Europe. If Israel lays down their arms - do you REALLY think that the bombings will stop? Like I said - Israel was dismantling checkpoints, pulling back from Gaza, etc - when the terrorists decided to bomb Israel 3 times in a weekend.

[Percy Weasley]

As has been stated before, I don't think it's fair to continue the analogy between Nazi Germany and Palestine. They are not analagous situations - there are far too many differences, many of which have been pointed out.

Secondly, yes, I do believe that the bombings would stop, it would just take patience. It might not happen in a week, even a month, or even a year, but it would happen. Why? Because Palestine would be forced by international pressure to stop. The Arab world would be furious because Israel's refusal to respond to the attacks would give them the moral high ground in the eyes of the world as long as the Palestinians continued with the violence. The Western world would be furious at the Palestinians for attacking a peaceful state. Even those countries refusing to take sides right now would be forced to condemn the actions of a state that attacks an innocent victim. But it would take patience, and likely a great deal of it. Lives would be lost, yes, but no more (likely less) than would be lost if this war continues ad infinitum as it seems to be headed now.

It is time for someone to do something different. It is sad to see that neither side is brave enough to break the cycle of violence.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Percy Weasley
As has been stated before, I don't think it's fair to continue the analogy between Nazi Germany and Palestine. They are not analagous situations - there are far too many differences, many of which have been pointed out.

I use the germany scenario in relation to terrorism. I do not think they are that hugely different. Again - difference of opinion. Of course there are differences - it doesn't mean that the similarities between them can't be used. Nothing is 100% the same - yet we make comparisons all the time.

Secondly, yes, I do believe that the bombings would stop, it would just take patience. It might not happen in a week, even a month, or even a year, but it would happen. Why? Because Palestine would be forced by international pressure to stop. The Arab world would be furious because Israel's refusal to respond to the attacks would give them the moral high ground in the eyes of the world as long as the Palestinians continued with the violence. The Western world would be furious at the Palestinians for attacking a peaceful state. Even those countries refusing to take sides right now would be forced to condemn the actions of a state that attacks an innocent victim. But it would take patience, and likely a great deal of it. Lives would be lost, yes, but no more (likely less) than would be lost if this war continues ad infinitum as it seems to be headed now.

It is time for someone to do something different. It is sad to see that neither side is brave enough to break the cycle of violence.

And how many Israelis will die in the process? I know I would not want the US government to just sit back and do nothing if Indians started bombing grocery stores, restaurants, bus stops, etc.

[Percy Weasley]

And how many Israelis will die in the process? I know I would not want the US government to just sit back and do nothing if Indians started bombing grocery stores, restaurants, bus stops, etc.

Probably no more than will die anyway if we follow the present course.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Percy Weasley
Probably no more than will die anyway if we follow the present course.

Would you be willing to let the US take that kind of chance if it was us? I think far more Israelis would be killed if they did nothing - because to many just want the complete elimination of Israel.

[Falagar]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Would you be willing to let the US take that kind of chance if it was us? I think far more Israelis would be killed if they did nothing - because to many just want the complete elimination of Israel.

But in the end they would be forced to stop, because then the international society would have to realize that the Israelis are innocent, and tryt to do something about it.

[Percy Weasley]

I do not have all the answers, JD. No one does.

All I know is that nothing is going to happen until someone takes a chance, and does something brave. Responding when someone hits you is not bravery, it is animalistic revenge. Maybe my idea would work. But at least its an attempt to do something different, because what's going on right now is most certainly not working.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Falagar
But in the end they would be forced to stop, because then the international society would have to realize that the Israelis are innocent.

Again - how much would you accept inaction from the Norwegian government if people from Sweden were bombing you in restaurants, bus stops, religious celebrations, national holidays, etc? How many dead innocent Norwegians would acceptable just so you can finally make the international community realize that you were innocent?

Israel during the summer - did not respond against several bombings. But then the 3 in one weekend happened.

[Percy Weasley]

And what would have happened had they ignored that?

Attacking someone when they refuse to respond quickly loses its effectiveness.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Percy Weasley
I do not have all the answers, JD. No one does.

All I know is that nothing is going to happen until someone takes a chance, and does something brave. Responding when someone hits you is not bravery, it is animalistic revenge. Maybe my idea would work. But at least its an attempt to do something different, because what's going on right now is most certainly not working.

I know it's not working - but as I said - severval times - Israel was backing down, was pulling out, wasn't responding to the bombings.

[Percy Weasley]

For how long? A few days? A few weeks? Granted, I was working at summer camp this summer, and was out of touch, but they were fighting when I went to camp, and fighting again when I left, so it couldn't have been much more than a month.

As I said, it takes patience.

[Falagar]

Again - how much would you accept inaction from the Norwegian government if people from Sweden were bombing you in restaurants, bus stops, religious celebrations, national holidays, etc? How many dead innocent Norwegians would acceptable just so you can finally make the international community realize that you were innocent?

If it was going to happen anyway, with or without retaliations, I would perhaps accept some attacks. Or perhaps not. But if it turned out that not retaliating would eventually stop the attacks, I would accept a great deal. Or perhaps not, it's hard for me to imagine such a situation.

It doesn't matter what I feel (or would feel), if fewer people would die without retaliation and the attacks would stop, it would be a good thing.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Falagar
If it was going to happen anyway, with or without retaliations, I would perhaps accept some attacks. Or perhaps not. But if it turned out that not retaliating would eventually stop the attacks, I would perhaps accept a great deal. Or perhaps not, it's hard for me to imagine such a situation.

Ask Radagast then - he lives with it on a daily basis and he doesn't hate palestinians and he wants peace. Like I said - he lives near Tel Aviv.

Percy - yes it takes patience. But why haven't you said that the palestinians should just stop the bombings? If they stopped the bombings and Israel was continuing to destroy palestinian homes and everything - then the US would get on Israel's case. Why not say the Palestinians should rise up against the bombers like many israelis have demonstrated AGAINST their own country's actions.

Like I said - there were israeli pilots who refused to follow an order to bomb a terrorist home because of collateral damage. Where are the palestinians demonstrating in their streets to speak out against the suicide bombers?