Muslims

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Falagar
Not all Muslims preach hatred, not all Muslims give money to terrorists. We can't accuse the majority of Muslims for something a minority does. In my opinion, Islam is no worse than Christianity, Judaism or any other religion.

I'll believe it's not the majority when I see the so-called majority you claim is out there - to stand up in the Middle East and call for the killings and terrorists to stop.

Saudi Arabia firing 2,000 clerics for preaching intolerance (hate) is NOT a small number to me.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sween
Very true but the same can be said for all relgions! I deplor the way the IRA and such groups hide behind religion so they have an excuss to do great evil.

I have publicly denounced the IRA actions. It's funny though - you say that Israel should back down - why doesn't England (and YES I use England - becuase they were the ones who conquered Ireland and continued to keep Northern Ireland) - why doesn't England let Northern Ireland go free? Why is that small piece of land on a small Island so important?

And i hate our government for allowing them have elected officials in the government! Its kinda ironic that America biggest suporter allows terroriust to walk free and stand for government!

I brought that up about Britain in a previous thread and I was flamed for it. But yes - I think it is OUTRAGEOUS that Britain allows that.

As for Islam it would be good to see some activity from there officials (do they have a pope kinda guy?) to say no this isnt on! But i have little hope this would happen/work

NO - they have the religious clerics. The thing is A LOT of them preach the hatred in the Mosques.

[Falagar]

Of course Islam is no worse - but the MOST vocal Mosques in the Middle East - as well as MANY in the West preach DEATH. This is where you sween have you head up your ass. You want to ignore this.

I have seen no proof for this, and am thus not going to comment it.

Also - Falagar - of course there are many leaders who condemn the attacks. But A LOT of them have been heard to condemn the attacks in English - only to support them in Arabic.

I have seen no proof for this either.

The terrorists are in the dark - they're in England, they're in America, they're in Australia. They're not ONLY in the Middle East. They just don't use the tanks and guns of a "normal" army. They don't have a country. They are fighting for an idea and belief, which is that anyone who does NOT follow true Islam - deserves death. This to me is NO different than Hitler during WWII.

I have said nothing about these people, there is a difference between the terrorists attacking other parts of the world and those who think they protect their country by blowing themselves up.

And when laying down your arms only brings more bombings and killings - as was DEMONSTRATED when israel did start to dismantle the settlements and checkpoints?

I guess Europe should have just laid down their arms during World War II.

Well, fighting them doesn't seem to work.

The difference here is that the Palesinians don't see themselves as aggressors. They believe that it's their land which is occupied by an enemy, and they don't have many other ways to "defend" themselves.

Germany in WWII was an aggressor, attacking others with no reason at all, only a lust to kill off as many jews, gypsies, homosexuals, osv as possible.

There are huge differences between WWII and this situation. For one thing, the Israelis have a much bigger army than the Palestinians. The Palesinians feel surpressed by the Israelis

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
In school now all the teachers are saying that Jihad is not a holy war and has nothing to with war...im like ...what????

All things you listed have to do wtih war, etc.

I forget what a teachers have said it is, but it was not that.

If they want to teach us about Islam, they should reall do it instead of making up stuff.

Why do all these religious fanatics seem to be a majority in the Arab world?

jihad is "to struggle". The fanatatical Islamic believers use it to mean "holy war". When supposedly what it is supposed to be is a struggle with themselves to be a better person. Right now I question as to who is right - considering there are two different kinds of jihad in islam. I think a lot of it is America and the West's in general need to believe that we have to be "politically correct".

We have fallen into this belief that if we say anything negative about a group of people who is not white - it has to be the result of racism. Well - my feelings toward the Middle East has nothing to do with racism - it has to do with the terrorist attacks, the BLATANT hatred against non-muslims in that is taught in the mosques and in the schools. When I see the student demonstrations in Iran - I SUPPORT them and am hoping that they succeed so we an be friends as nations - but then the religious leaders put down these demonstrations (sometimes very violently) and the Muslim world just sits there.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Falagar
I have seen no proof for this, and am thus not going to comment it.

I have seen no proof for this either.

It's been in the news over and over again. It is well known that Arafat speaks about condemning the attacks against Israel while at the same time he lends his support - as Rad said.

I have said nothing about these people, there is a difference between the terrorists attacking other parts of the world and those who think they protect their country by blowing themselves up.

Where are they doing it to protect their country. As Radagast, Valandil and myself have said - the middle eastern countries are the ones WHO started the
conflict with Israel. Israel would not have attacked the Palestinians if they were not attacked. The so-called occuppied terrorties as I have said in countless threads and Valandil has repeated here - is land that Israel won in a war which was started by Syria, Egpyt, etc. Now they want the land back - and say that they are the ones who have been victimized by Israel. If those countries didn't try eliminating israel - there would be peace.

Well, fighting them doesn't seem to work.

So I guess just lay down your arms and let them come in and kill you?

The difference here is that the Palesinians don't see themselves as aggressors. They believe that it's their land which is occupied by an enemy, and they don't have many other ways to "defend" themselves.

As I said - they lost that land in war they supported and was conducted in their name. It was started AGAINST Israel. In the MANY agreements with Israel- Israel has accepted to give back 90% of those lands - but that isn't enough. The only thing that is enough for the terrorist is the complete elimination of the Jews.

Germany in WWII was an aggressor, attacking others with no reason at all, only a lust to kill off as many jews, gypsies, homosexuals, osv as possible.

There are huge differences between WWII and this situation.

How is it different? The only reason bin Ladin is against the West is because he feels that Islam is the one true faith, Hitler beleived in the Aryan race, the terrorist have an undeniable hatred toward the jews, including gays and infidels - Hitler had an undeniable hatred toward the Jews, gays and others. The only difference I see - Hitler ruled a country and had a conventional army. The fanatical muslims - work through the mosques (which are part of their countries governemt, since there is no seperations of church and state in most of the Muslim world) and the schools.

For one thing, the Israelis have a much bigger army than the Palestinians. The Palesinians feel surpressed by the Israelis

So if you think Israel is the agressor in this then why hasn't Israel taken over ALL the lands? Technically there is NOTHING to prevent Israel from doing to the palestinians what Germany did to Poland. The thing is - Israel never sought out the Palestinian lands - but the palestinians seek out the israeli lands.

Oh and Falagar - sorry for the "head up your ass comment" I guess I was still upset about Sween's comment and resorted to using that statement.

[Falagar]

So if you think Israel is the agressor in this then why hasn't Israel taken over ALL the lands? Technically there is NOTHING to prevent Israel from doing to the palestinians what Germany did to Poland. The thing is - Israel never sought out the Palestinian lands - but the palestinians seek out the israeli lands.

I have not said what I think, I have pointed out what the Palesinians feel.

Can't comment more right now...

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I have publicly denounced the IRA actions. It's funny though - you say that Israel should back down - why doesn't England (and YES I use England - becuase they were the ones who conquered Ireland and continued to keep Northern Ireland) - why doesn't England let Northern Ireland go free? Why is that small piece of land on a small Island so important?

Actually, there are a lot of parallels between Northern Ireland and the occupied territories.

A land is conquered, outside settlers ( Scottish Protestants/ Israeli settlers) are encouraged to colonise to both take over the land and control the native population (Irish Catholics/ Palestinians); the settlers have a strong religious antagonism toward the indigenous populace, and feel the God has given the land to them.

The settlers are backed by such overwhelming armed force(British Army/ Israeli Army) that the original inhabitants have nothing to fight back with but terrorism (IRA/ Islamic Jihad etc.), which leads them to be condemned by most, while recieving funding and support from outside forces some of whom claim -maybe even truthfully- that they're only supporting charities (other Muslims/Irish- Americans {and Irish-Canadians and Irish-Australians, though the bulk of the support and funding came from Boston and New York})

[jerseydevil]

Oh - and by the way falagar - Hitler came to power and he sought revenge because of the Treaty of Versailles. Becuase that treaty was a revenge treaty and Europe wanted Germany to pay dearly for WWI. America was against this treaty and spoke out against it.

Do you think that Hitler had a right to start WWII because of the Treaty of Versailles - will you stick up for him like you seem to be sticking up for the Palestinians and the other fanatical Muslims who resort to bombings and terrorism?

Again - I see no difference in the terrorists of the Middle East, bin Ladin, the PLO, etc - than that of Hitler. Just the methods are different.

[Ruinel]

This thread has turned toward a discussion of terrorism. And since it has, I'd like to point out that the only Mooter that actually lives with this first hand and everyday, that I know of, is Radagast the Brown. I take his comments here very seriously, and I give him more credit than any of the other posts about this subject.

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by jerseydevil

So if you think Israel is the agressor in this then why hasn't Israel taken over ALL the lands? Technically there is NOTHING to prevent Israel from doing to the palestinians what Germany did to Poland. The thing is - Israel never sought out the Palestinian lands - but the palestinians seek out the israeli lands.

The signing of the Oslo accord in 1993 signified Israel's official recognition of Palestinians as a nation represented by the Palestine Liberation Organisation.

But that had no impact on the colonisation programme. Since the Oslo accord, the number of settlements has risen from 157 to 200, and nearly 40,000 new houses have been constructed. The number of Jewish settlers in the West Bank and Gaza has shot up from 125,000 to 200,000, and in Arab East Jerusalem, from 150,000 to 200,000.

http://www.palestinemonitor.org/sett..._the_issue.htm

Hey- it was ALL Palestinian land originally.

You can convert to Judaism tomorrow and have a right to live in Israel, but if you're a Palestinian who was born there and whose land was taken during the establishment of Israel, you're out of luck- one of the reasons for the breakdown of the Camp David Accords was the refusal to allow even a symbolic right of return for some Palestinians.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Actually, there are a lot of parallels between Northern Ireland and the occupied territories.

A land is conquered, outside settlers ( Scottish Protestants/ Israeli settlers) are encouraged to colonise to both take over the land and control the native population (Irish Catholics/ Palestinians); the settlers have a strong religious antagonism toward the indigenous populace, and feel the God has given the land to them.

The settlers are backed by such overwhelming armed force(British Army/ Israeli Army) that the original inhabitants have nothing to fight back with but terrorism (IRA/ Islamic Jihad etc.), which leads them to be condemned by most, while recieving funding and support from outside forces some of whom claim -maybe even truthfully- that they're only supporting charities (other Muslims/Irish- Americans {and Irish-Canadians and Irish-Australians, though the bulk of the support and funding came from Boston and New York})

I agree - but the thing is - Israel had a couple of months ago started to tear down a settlement and had told many others that they MUST leave as part of the agreement for the Roadmap of Peace. Of course - the Jews that are living their are fanatical themselves and many refused to leave. But israel was paid for this concession by more bombings by the Palestinians. Even though Israel was dismantling the settlements - they were STILL bombed. The IRA has been relatively calm for years and I haven't seen England give ANY land back to Ireland.

[Falagar]

Oh - and by the way falagar - Hitler came to power and he sought revenge because of the Treaty of Versailles. Becuase that treaty was a revenge treaty and Europe wanted Germany to pay dearly for WWI. America was against this treaty and spoke out against it.

Do you think that Hitler had a right to start WWII because of the Treaty of Versailles - will you stick up for him like you seem to be sticking up for the Palestinians and the other fanatical Muslims who resort to bombings and terrorism?

I haven't said that it's right, only that it is a reason.

How is it different? The only reason bin Ladin is against the West is because he feels that Islam is the one true faith, Hitler beleived in the Aryan race, the terrorist have an undeniable hatred toward the jews, including gays and infidels - Hitler had an undeniable hatred toward the Jews, gays and others. The only difference I see - Hitler ruled a country and had a conventional army. The fanatical muslims - work through the mosques (which are part of their countries governemt, since there is no seperations of church and state in most of the Muslim world) and the schools.

They believe they fight for their home, if we're talking about the Palestinians.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by GrayMouser

Hey- it was ALL Palestinian land originally.

it wasn't ALL palestinian land originally. It was Roman, it was the Jews, it was the Ottoman Empires, it was Englands. England OWNED the land when they and the United NATIONS created Israel. The Jews went BACK to THEIR land.

The Indians of North America - are not going to get back the United States land - anymore than the Palestinians are going to get back Israel. The Anglos-Saxons - are not going to get back the land of England. Is Europe going to give England, Germany, France, Turkey back to Rome? or should we just go ALL the way back to our prehistoric tribes - with the Gauls and all that?

You can convert to Judaism tomorrow and have a right to live in Israel, but if you're a Palestinian who was born there and whose land was taken during the establishment of Israel, you're out of luck- one of the reasons for the breakdown of the Camp David Accords was the refusal to allow even a symbolic right of return for some Palestinians.

There are many reasons for the breakdown of the Camp David Accords - there are many reasons for why all attempts at peace have failed - the largest being ARAFAT. He has demonstrated time and time again that he does not want peace. That is why all the new ministers (as part of the requirement for the Roadmap to Peace) have left. The Palestinians who are put in that position and WANT peace - say that he will not give them the control necessary to bring peace.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Falagar
They believe they fight for their home, if we're talking about the Palestinians.

The palestinians are only ONE part of the problem in the Middle East - but is a rallying cry for ALL the other terrorist groups. The other groups and many of the Middle Eastern countries support the conflict because it is their one point they can rally around. They know that if peace succeeds - they're main argument for jihad is gone.

For the terrorists - it has less to do with their homeland than it does with their hatred of the Jews and the destruction of Israel. Did you read my post where I show what is said in the Mosques and taught in the schools of Saudi Arabia?

[Falagar]

Originally posted by Ruinel
This thread has turned toward a discussion of terrorism. And since it has, I'd like to point out that the only Mooter that actually lives with this first hand and everyday, that I know of, is Radagast the Brown. I take his comments here very seriously, and I give him more credit than any of the other posts about this subject.

It would be nice if we also had one from Palestina here too, to get two different views on it. But they're not wealthy enough to own any computers, or internet (and those who do have probably never read anything by Tolkien).

[Falagar]

For the terrorists - it has less to do with their homeland than it does with their hatred of the Jews and the destruction of Israel. Did you read my post where I show what is said in the Mosques and taught in the schools of Saudi Arabia?

There are 1,678,442,000 (1998, expected to be 1,902,095,000 in 200) muslims in the world. There are 19,409,058 in Saudi Arabia. About every forth person is a muslim (according to this site: http://islamicweb.com/begin/results.htm).

'Most' is a big word.

[Percy Weasley]

I would appreciate that you not patronize me, JD, as I am an educated adult. I am not a pimpled twelve year old drooling over actors, but someone who reads the daily news and listens to NPR at least three hours a day. I would appreciate it if you would take my opinions seriously. It would do a lot for this debate.

Anyway, I will take a big step and say that YES, Israel should lay down their arms. Look at it this way - right now, people are dying on both sides. It is hard to say who is right and who is wrong when both sides are committing atrocities, and doing everything in their power to destroy the other. Neither side has the moral authority. As soon as one side has the courage to end this terror (and yes, I call both sides terroristic - sorry, people, it takes two to tango), that morality belongs to them. At that point, if the Palestinians continued with their attacks, likely all of Europe and most of the world would throw their support behind Israel, as they would be the innocent victims. The pressure that would be put on the Palestinians would likely force them directly to do the same.

Right now, as long as they respond an eye-for-an-eye, as they have been doing, they are not an innocent victim, just another player in a bloody, drawn-out, terrible religious war.

[azalea]

(This thread keeps going way off topic, so I'll just add my own off topic thoughts to the post ).

I'm not familiar with Isreal's governmental structure, but do they have a Senate like ours? I mean, couldn't they somehow appoint a few Palestinians to posts in their gov., so that they'd have a voice there that could take comments from "the people" and then translate that into legislation that would allow the peace process to move forward? And in the meantime, the Isrealis could continue to keep the hammer down on potential terrorism, but there could be some system in place that would allow direct dialog that would actually move everything in a positive direction?

And yes, if the Palestinians resorted to peaceful protest (if that was TAUGHT TO THEM AND PREACHED IN THEIR MOSQUES they'd be doing it), then you just KNOW Isreal would work with them, and even provide humanitarian aid, etc. to help them (I would hope). But for some reason this fanatical Islam has taken hold and permeated the moderate Islamic doctrine, so that the moderate Muslims don't speak about the terrorism (I mean speak out, as in stage major protests, doing whatever they can to curb the terrorism. You'd think they would, since it would improve their quality of life so much, IOW, they could live their lives in peace). In fact, it's reported that a lot of mosques here in the U.S. have been investigated for bankrolling the terrorist training. There are layers between the two, but the unwitting Muslim might be asked to donate to a cause through the mosque here in the U.S., then that money is sent to that organization, which then sends the money to another country, where it ends up in hands of a cover group for terrorists. So that's been a big problem, how to delicately handle this so as to curtail it, but not infringe on the rights of people of faith giving to charity. It's so hard to "follow the money" in many cases.

Also, we DO have a substantial Muslim pop. in the U.S.: in addition to immigrants from Islamic countries and their children, there are also a number of black Americans who converted (especially in the sixties and seventies) as a way to reach back to their African roots.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Well, it seems that Israel is more defensive than offensive, and although they be the stronger of the two, and it would seem more logical that they be the ones to lay down their arms first, I think that they have the most to lose and would likely be attacked.

It isn't the Israeli government or military, or the palistinian clerics, terrorists or islamic fanatics that are the victims in any of this. It is the helpless old people that can do nothing, and children, that can do nothing, but sit and wait for hope to come.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Falagar
It would be nice if we also had one from Palestina here too, to get two different views on it. But they're not wealthy enough to own any computers, or internet (and those who do have probably never read anything by Tolkien).

Now that is a loaded statement. How can you say that? Not a lot have internet access that is true - but to say that they have probably never read Tolkien is to me somewhat bigotted. Why wouldn't they read Tolkien?

I however agree with you that it would be good to have a Palestinian. Are you aware of the Seeds of Peace?

In 2001 - there was an aricle that the palestinians weren't going to send a delegation. I'm unsure as to whether they did or not...

Palestinians Not Sending Campers to U.S.-Based Peace Camp
by Dina Kraft

RAMALLAH, West Bank (AP) In past summers, the two Palestinian teen-agers canoed, shared cabins and talked peace with Israelis their age at a camp in rural Maine.

This summer, Mai Abu-Emera and Mashour Arori, both 16, will stay home. Palestinians aren't sending anyone to the Seeds of Peace camp following eight months of fighting that has left hundreds dead.

For now, Israelis are still going; they are to be joined in the camp's Mideast program by teen-agers from Jordan, Egypt and Morocco.

But citing the recent violence, the Palestinian Ministry of Education said it has advised against sending a delegation this year.

''Our situation is so difficult, we are not in a position to participate this year,'' said Numan Sharif, a ministry official in charge of the Seeds of Peace program for the Palestinians.

Still, Sharif said many Israeli and Palestinian campers from past years are keeping in touch through phone calls, e-mails and an Internet message board set up for campers who refer to themselves as ''seeds''.

Sharif's Israeli counterpart, Hadara Rosenblum, acknowledged the Israeli decision to send delegates to Maine was agonizing.

''There are times we say we have someone to talk to on the other side and there are periods when we don't. We are very confused,'' Rosenblum said.

Ultimately, she said, escalating violence could lead the Israelis to pull out, too.

The camp's founder, John Wallach, said he held out hope last-minute developments a brittle cease-fire may be taking hold this week might allow the Palestinians to come. But time is running short, with camp to begin at the end of June in Otisfield, Maine.

Either way, he said, the camp and its mission will persevere.

''Seeds of Peace has been going on and will go on,'' Wallach said by telephone from New York.

Abu-Emera said trust has vanished after so many funerals. Discussing peace over hikes and campfires is impossible now, she said.

''We had so much hope and a feeling of power, but now it's all fading,'' Abu-Emera said while sitting with Arori in a classroom at their West Bank school.

She said it was easier for the Israelis to go to camp because their reality has not been as radically altered by the fighting.

Since fighting began Sept. 28, nearly 500 people have been killed on the Palestinian side and more than 100 on the Israeli side. Among the dead is one of Seeds of Peace's own, 17-year-old Asel Asleh, an Arab Israeli shot by Israeli police during pro-Palestinian riots in October.

Most of the violence has taken place in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, where Palestinian towns have come under repeated assault by Israeli forces retaliating for anti-Israel attacks. But dozens of Jewish settlers have also been shot, and suicide bombings in Israeli cities have left people afraid to walk the streets.

After Israel retaliated for a May suicide bombing by sending F-16 warplanes to rocket security installations in his hometown of Ramallah and elsewhere, Arori said a fellow Israeli seed, Rita Konaev, was among the first to call.

''It was good to feel that at least one Israeli was thinking about what the Palestinians feel,'' Arori said.

Konaev, 15, from the northern town of Afula, said she runs up her phone bills keeping in touch with the Palestinian, Egyptian and Jordanian friends she made at camp.

She is upset the Palestinians won't be at camp this summer.

''Even though we are just kids without any influence, we are among the only ones still talking to each other,'' she said. ''It (camp) is the only rational thing we have going at this point.''