Who do you think should be elected in 2008?

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

I haven't said recently how much I enjoy chatting with you here about this stuff. It's always interesting, and I value it.

You liked the dentist bit that much?

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

Do you have a contracting company of choice that you would have preferred be in Iraq, BJ?

Maybe an Iraqi one? It would do wonders for the economy we are supposedly trying to rebuild.

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

I do think we/he/they/whatever wanted to be in Iraq for reasons other than Saddam/WMD: namely, to create another U.S.-friendly middle-eastern country. I don't think that's a bad mission.

I don't think that even GWB is stupid enough to think that any kind of invasion would lead to that... then again, maybe.

In then end, perception is reality. Most of the world, and most of the US, think the invasion was a bad idea. Thus, it is.

There are still a small group of diehards that think we could have won in Vietnam, but them thinking so doesn't make it reality for anyone but them.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

Maybe an Iraqi one? It would do wonders for the economy we are supposedly trying to rebuild.

Impossible. There's no such thing, and never was. The middle-east's economy depends on two things: exporting oil, and importing goods. And that, my friends (to quote John McCain), is about all there is to it.

I do have a shawl made in Pakistan though.

I don't think that even GWB is stupid enough to think that any kind of invasion would lead to that... then again, maybe.

Confusing invasion with occupation are we?

In then end, perception is reality.

You sound like you just finished the newest issue of Rolling Stone magazine

There are still a small group of diehards that think we could have won in Vietnam, but them thinking so doesn't make it reality for anyone but them.

Of course we could have won Vietnam. History didn't bear the Vietnam situation with defeating America specifically in mind...but we weren't really trying all that hard. From what I've read in Nixon's conversations, public perception and opinion was very much a driving force in the President's policy.

It was a war half-hearedly waged. We lost because we didn't care about winning to begin with.

[brownjenkins]

Like I said... perception is reality.

[hectorberlioz]

Yeah but you're missing my point: I'm not saying we can still win Vietnam. But it was a winnable war. And to reiterate: it wasn't a situation born to be against us.

I don't know whether you're saying it was or not, but your opinion includes us losing Vietnam...and my point is, we didn't have to lose it.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

Yeah but you're missing my point: I'm not saying we can still win Vietnam. But it was a winnable war. And to reiterate: it wasn't a situation born to be against us.

I don't know whether you're saying it was or not, but your opinion includes us losing Vietnam...and my point is, we didn't have to lose it.

And my point is that it was not a winnable war, in any real sense of the word, and neither is Iraq. If you think that we didn't try to win in Vietnam, you should really do some reading up on the actual conflict.

The ultimate reason why we couldn't win in Vietnam and won't win in Iraq: the people don't want the solution we are pushing for. Shiites, Sunnis, and Kurds don't want to live together democratically. Only an oppressive government like Saddam's could keep the country together.

[hectorberlioz]

No, I'm not happy that people are dying...al Qaeda in Iraq is killing them, and we are killing al Qaeda.

Establishing a solid democracy for Iraqis, an ally for the US, and for the world in general. Yes, that is good. It may not be happy, but it is good.

[hectorberlioz]

Romney as Veep talk:

From: Politico

From: Weekly Standard

From: Medved

My brain tells me: no, things have cooled down. It is not imperative that Romney be on the ticket.

My heart tells me: Romney can gain appreciation through familiarity, which is what the Veep spot brings.

[hectorberlioz]

Ok, looks like Geraldine Ferraro has brought up the race issue concerning the Obama campaign.

I hate the race issue being used and abused, I truly hate it. It's annoying to encounter arguments that run along the lines of "you're not voting for Obama because you're racist", or "you're only voting for Obama to try and get rid of your white guilt".

Or the accusations directed at the Republicans and the minorities who are part of it: "you're just trying to make up for all your past racism", or the attitude towards GOP minorities that they are just trying to be "token" Republicans.

You can't win: you're either a racist or you're a racist.

That's why bringing up the race issue can only be bad in a campaign. Isn't it better to let things like this go unspoken? We don't want to divide the african-american electorate from the white electorate, so why would a prominent Democrat like Ferraro bring it up?

It's better if we let people vote: if they are racist, you can't stop them. If they don't like Mormons, you can't stop it. If they don't like Muslims, you can't stop it. If they don't like women, you can't stop it. If they don't like Chuck Norris, you can't stop it. You can condemn it, but you can't stop it.

You can't stop people from voting a particular way. So here's what I propose: let those things go unspoken and not accuse eachother of it, and let's just stick with condeming racism, shall we?

Republicans have not put a serious minority candidate out (unless you count Alan Keyes as serious), and neither have the Democrats till now. We have to start somewhere, so let's leave off the presumed reasons why or why not we are putting forward minority candidates.

Self-righteous enough for you?

[hectorberlioz]

Bwahahaha! *wipes tears of laughter*

[Insidious Rex]

Ok, looks like Geraldine Ferraro has brought up the race issue concerning the Obama campaign.

The thing is how can anyone be so foolish to say that? Ever heard of Jesse Jackson or Alan Keyes or Al Sharpton? Were they lucky for being black when they ran for president? What foolishness.

[hectorberlioz]

I have done my reading on it, and we could have won.

You're trying to say that the Vietnam war was an inherently unwinnable war, and I'm saying that's not the case.

I guess we'll just have to force it on them, eh? I guess that's what you think they like.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

You're trying to say that the Vietnam war was an inherently unwinnable war, and I'm saying that's not the case.

I'm saying that a vast majority of people now realize that it was an unwinnable war from the start, including many conservatives who were behind it at the time. But, a minority refuse to believe this because it conflicts with their view that the US can do whatever it wants in the world and succeed, if we only try hard enough. And this minority feels so strong on this point that this perception becomes their reality.

My guess is that no evidence I could present would get you to even consider that alternative. I too grew up thinking it was a war that could have been won then, after working on a book on the subject with a former ultra-conservative employer, I learned otherwise. We never had a chance.

I think that ultimately, Iraq will end up the same way. We will eventually leave, there will be a lot of violence, and things will eventually calm down to relative peacefulness, like in Vietnam today. The question is how long we drag our feet before admitting this. But I have no doubt that we will eventually.

[GrayMouser]

Certainly the US/Vietnam War was winnable; just like the French/Algerian War was winnable; or the Soviet/Afghan War was winnable.

If any of the above countries had poured the resources into winning those wars that they had into WWII they would have won.

It still would have been incredibly stupid policy.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

Certainly the US/Vietnam War was winnable; just like the French/Algerian War was winnable; or the Soviet/Afghan War was winnable.

If any of the above countries had poured the resources into winning those wars that they had into WWII they would have won.

It still would have been incredibly stupid policy.

What does "winnable" mean to you? We could have made the region a glassy hole in the ground, technically. But the fact that the people didn't support an all-out fight for it is part of the equation. Committing to "total war" (universal conscription, war economy, rationing, etc.) is a big undertaking for a country. In a democracy, the intended benefits have to be pretty clear. They weren't, for Vietnam, and they aren't, for Iraq.

Hector, if he really thought the Iraq war was important, could go there. College educated boy like him, they'd have green on him in zip time. Quite possibly his grandfather did that in WWII. All the males in that generation in my family did. People perceived it as important. People now mostly TALK about how it's important. That's different.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Hector, if he really thought the Iraq war was important, could go there.

No, I don't have to be there to think it's important. I also don't have the courage to go there. And I won't to only prove a point to you, thanks.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

What does "winnable" mean to you? We could have made the region a glassy hole in the ground, technically. But the fact that the people didn't support an all-out fight for it is part of the equation. Committing to "total war" (universal conscription, war economy, rationing, etc.) is a big undertaking for a country. In a democracy, the intended benefits have to be pretty clear. They weren't, for Vietnam, and they aren't, for Iraq.

I agree.

[hectorberlioz]

More on Geraldine Ferraro/Obama debacle.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0308/9008.html

Now I find out she said the same thing about Jesse Jackson in 1988! Ok seriously, she may have a point about how some people feel about Obama, even though I think it ought to be left out.........but Jesse Jackson?!!

I've heard Obama's response, and I have to agree with his comments.

[hectorberlioz]

More Veep talk
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art...he_future.html

and...
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ed..._running_mate/

[BeardofPants]

My boyfriend just got back from vietnam, and the general census he got was that they WANTED the US out towards the end, not that they felt 'abandoned' by them.