04-27-2006, 02:35 PM | #181 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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04-27-2006, 03:29 PM | #182 | |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
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04-27-2006, 04:11 PM | #183 | |
Elf Lord
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I on the other hand assert that there are absolutes. You understand that. You just don't like it! Your conclusions are regarded by yourself with the same certainty as I regard mine. We both tell each other the other is wrong. Are we two fundamentalist peas in a pod or are we two opinionated folks who disagree goodnaturedly? Hmmmmm! I don't have any terrorist plans for you (humorous remarks about depleted uranium projectiles to the side, of course ). I'm not gonna take you to the Inquisition. I'm continuing dialogue with you. I'm really, really, really nice. Pretty much the same for you. ERGO, I'm not a fundamentalist unless you are!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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04-27-2006, 04:38 PM | #184 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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04-27-2006, 04:42 PM | #185 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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04-27-2006, 05:19 PM | #186 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 04-27-2006 at 05:21 PM. |
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04-27-2006, 08:11 PM | #187 | ||||
Elf Lord
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Though I know you put it far more politely. But my point is that racism as an ideology was very strong in America long before the KKK. The KKK was the new expression of it, after slavery was abolished. But it was the same thing really, violence based on ideology. That's what it was by the time of the KKK. There was a great deal of fear of blacks with their ignorance and inferiority gaining power over whites and endangering society. I'll close down this line of speaking for now though, and wait for your evidence. And for you to respond to the rest of my post! Quote:
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My solution basically is: 1# Bring an end to Islam through PEACEFUL PEACEFUL PEACEFUL evangelism ( people keep accusing me of trying to spread Christianity through force of arms; I MUST make this point clear!). Anyone Muslim isn't interested doesn't need to listen to the Christians. We'd leave alone anyone who isn't open. But Islam is a violent, dangerous religion, and the only way to bring a final solution to that problem in the long run is to end the religion completely. 2# Our government should support liberal, peaceful Muslim groups. 3# We should befriend Muslims on a personal, family level. 4# Our government should provide helpful and fair policies in the Middle East. My view is that because Islam is an innately violent religion, so I don't believe that points 2-4 can be effective in the long term. We can always try though, of course. Doing these things may slow extremism down enough for us to gain time. Christians should involve themselves in point 1, and I know that many already are. I don't expect you or any non-Christians to agree with point 1. We could still work together, though, on points 2-4. I think our government already is providing helpful and fair policies in the Middle East to some extent, though changes in some parts of our policies are necessary. Point 3, I just don't know how much is being practiced. We probably need to do more with this. Point 2 I think is happening. Point 1 I know is happening, though if there were a greater emphasis on it in the Christian community, better results might be visible.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-28-2006 at 04:31 AM. |
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04-28-2006, 02:08 AM | #188 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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(just jokin', of course!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 04-28-2006 at 02:14 AM. |
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04-28-2006, 04:32 AM | #189 | |
Elf Lord
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Everybody, I was quoting Jesus from the New Testament, NOT quoting the Old Testament!!! Honest.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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04-28-2006, 10:06 AM | #190 | ||||
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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04-28-2006, 11:12 AM | #191 | |
Elf Lord
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I find your evidence regarding the Klan strong, BJ, so I'll drop part of my Klan argument. You've proven to me that environment did provide fuel for the Klan, and I already accept that it provides fuel for Muslim extremism. I was making assumptions earlier that I shouldn't have made. Like you're saying, the Klan was trying to defend its way of life, and being occupied and feeling threatened did certainly provide food for the Klan to grow on.
It still is a big stretch, and an inaccurate one, to say environment was the only reason for the Klan, however. It was surely caused by environment as well as ideology. Any modern White Power person, and they'll say that the blacks are inferior to them. If you'd have asked most people in the South at that time, you'd have gotten the same answer. That's ideology, and much of the racism in the US is founded on that ideology. You know, there were many race crimes going on against the blacks long before the Klan emerged. The Klan was really just a continuation of those race crimes. It would be pretty amazing if all such crimes stopped right after the Civil War! The conquered still had the same mindset as they did before the war, as well as now anger against oppression, which (as you have now convinced me) provided fuel for their group and was one of its reasons for existing. Yet criminal behavior like the Klan represented would have certainly continued to exist after the Civil War, because of the mindset of the people. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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04-28-2006, 02:50 PM | #192 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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04-28-2006, 09:00 PM | #193 | |
Elven Warrior
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The problem with point 1 is that, even if it were desirable, there is, realistically, about 0% chance of it working. If you look at the three great Western monotheisms (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) and the main Eastern religions (Hinduism, Buddhism and that Buddhist/Taoist/Confucianist syncretism we can call 'Chinese' religion), you can group them as 'developed' religions- their main teachings are written down, they have fully developed ethical systems and cosmologies, they all claim to be universalist (Judaism and Hinduism in their own way). Cases of conversion from one of these to any of the others are few and far between, especially in modern times; almost all examples of missionary success have come against more quote unquote 'backward' religions- animists and pagans; usually in the context of a more powerful civilisation confronting a weaker one, peacefully or otherwise. The Muslim conversion of Bangla Desh is one, and that took a combination of political conquest, the Hindu caste system which condemned much of the Bengali population to a low status, and the development of a Sufist brand uf Islam which incorporated a lot of local Hindu/Buddhist beliefs and practises, and is viewed suspiciously by other Muslims. The only other one I can think of is the partial success of Christianity in South Korea, where about one-third of the population have been converted ( and I suspect that a lot of Koreans are Christian the same way that Poles are Catholic). To convert a population that is 1.3 billion, is growing fast, and lives primarily in countries controlled by members of their own religion?- I don't think that there's much chance of that happening, certainly not fast enough to have any effect on the GWoT. Last edited by GreyMouser : 04-28-2006 at 09:38 PM. |
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04-29-2006, 01:57 AM | #194 | ||
Elf Lord
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I actually also find it unlikely that God will choose to completely end Islam in this way, though I think it is possible and there is a historical precedent of God moving in this way. However, I believe it is essential that Christians make a stab at this, whether Islam is completely eliminated or not. I am convinced that Christians' dedication at this in the hands of God will save lives. Quote:
I disagree with your terming currently weakened or nonexistent historical religions "backward" religions. Historical religions, animist and pagan, often drew as much belief as the major religions of today do. The major peaceful transformations of historical times were just as significant as major peaceful transformations in modern times would be. Historical major religions were powerful in their time. Modern major religions are powerful in our time. In the future, different major religions will probably exist in great power. Let's keep a sense of perspective .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-29-2006 at 02:03 AM. |
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04-29-2006, 02:01 AM | #195 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I certainly don't think Islam will disappear, and I think there is no solution, in this world, to the problem of world peace (or lack thereof, actually). If you solve one area, another will pop up. Not that we should stop striving, because it's always right to strive for good, but IMO that problem will never be solved in this world.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
04-29-2006, 02:03 AM | #196 | |
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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04-29-2006, 07:55 AM | #197 | |||
Elven Warrior
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In Africa,they are converting from animism; Islam is also growing by conversion there. Historically far more Christians have converted to Islam than vice-versa, (North Africa and the Eastern Roman Empire) but even then it took conquest, legal discrimination- which you explicitly rule out- and hundreds of years. Quote:
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04-29-2006, 11:51 AM | #198 | |||
Elf Lord
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But then it also is true that many of the pagan religions of the past were extremely widespread, rather than centered on a specific tribe or nation. The Babylonian, Sumerian, Assyrian, Pheonician, Greek and Roman religions were all highly entwined with one another. The religions took gods from one another and believed in them, and striking parallels are visible between the deities of their religion. Sometimes they actually have the same names for their gods. Baal worship was extremely widespread. These were major religions of the past that existed in many major cultures, with only slight variations. Yet despite the popularity of these religions, they largely collapsed when Christianity emerged. It could be argued that some remnants of those religions remained within Christianity, but not much. Many religions of the past didn't deny that gods aside from their own existed. They accepted the existence of many gods, so their beliefs were universalist, or all accepting. They weren't theologically limited. The Roman religion was a spectacular example of this. When they encountered new gods, they accepted them and moved on. Their religion was little different from the ones that came before, but it was universalist enough that they could just embrace everyone. Christianity, on the other hand, wasn't nearly so accepting. In spite of the efforts of Roman and Jewish authorities, it spread like wildfire. It started out small and with every disadvantage, but it won everywhere. Saint Patrick in Ireland is another good example. This wasn't a situation of empire confronting little pagans, but one little man with a handful of followers confronting an entrenched religion that had existed there for . . . fiddlesticks; I'm having trouble finding out how long. Here's a helpful article about what life was like when Saint Patrick came to Ireland. It mentions that the druids there had "spiritual hegemony," and describes the Irish as people who lived on pastorialism and farming, and didn't use writing. This doesn't sound like a people that would have been well acquainted with Christianity at all before Saint Patrick. Nonetheless, in 200 years, Saint Patrick and his successors had completely brought Ireland into the Christian religion. In his own lifetime, Patrick baptized 120,000 people and founded three hundred churches. When you say, "most pagan religions were tied to a particular tribe or nation and its customs or history," it is worth pointing out that while of course most of those religions were probably tied to particular tribes or nations, that doesn't mean most pagans were tied to religions that related only to particular tribes or nations. There were vast numbers of pagans who participated in religions that were accepted over huge amounts of territory. The Roman Empire is a great example of this, as are the major religions I already mentioned that came before. Those religions were all tied tightly together and had enormous numbers of adherents. They would also have seemed much more universalist in that time period than Christianity, for Christianity rejected everyone who deviated from the major tenents of their religion, rather than accepting all people with whatever gods they worshipped.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-29-2006 at 11:52 AM. |
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04-30-2006, 09:22 AM | #199 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Now we just have to spread that acceptance and tolerance which we have among our fellow citizens to the rest of the world. No easy task, but it will happen in time. I think we've come a long way in the past few thousand years and will keep moving towards a more global society, though many will continue to fight it kicking and screaming. Peace comes from truly knowing your neighbor, and from them knowing you, not by trying to make them become just like you.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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04-30-2006, 01:13 PM | #200 | ||||
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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