09-02-2007, 03:06 PM | #181 |
Elf Lady
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Perhaps instead of creating our own countries, it would be an interesting experiment to just dump people from everywhere and nowhere on the island with all the materials and knowledge they wanted and just see what they make of it.
Just see what religion and what type of governing would prevail. (Wouldn't want to be one of those people though, because it may turn out to become an anarchy)
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09-02-2007, 05:10 PM | #182 | |
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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09-03-2007, 05:00 AM | #183 | |
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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09-03-2007, 02:49 PM | #184 | |
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 09-03-2007 at 02:51 PM. |
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09-03-2007, 05:27 PM | #185 | |
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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09-03-2007, 05:51 PM | #186 | |
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Even if the Roman Catholic version of the ten commandments (which in most cases, is probably the most accurate) has that particular commandment as "Thou shalt put no other god before me," or something like that, it then shows a hint of self-contradiction, denying that other gods exist, yet hinting at their existence. I'm not sure, however, about any of this, because I am not, after all, Catholic. One thing I must thank the Catholic Church for is accepting Big Bang theory as "moderately consistent" with Biblical teachings, even if it means stretching (or contracting, rather) the time scales several hundredfold.
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09-03-2007, 08:36 PM | #187 | |||
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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09-05-2007, 05:37 AM | #188 |
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I really enjoy this whole religion discussion, but I do start to think you're getting a bit scary Lief.
I might have misinterpreted you, but are you really saying that your truth about God and religion is the only right one? But truth is personal, don't you think? Even the institutionalized Catholic church has known different headings and different points of importance and even different stances on things like the use of condom, depending on the time, place and pope. So how can anyone think their truth is the right one? I do have to agree with GrayMouser on this one, not one religious person holds the same view as another and therefore you can only point to one more or less general view of religion as being the right one. Just on the side: the ideas people hold of their religion change throughout their lives. Sometimes radical, sometimes only minimal. Since you can't know wether your faith will change radically or not, it might be safer not to limit religion too much. (I have more (coherent) things to say, but my mother is saying she'll pull the plug out of I don't turn of the computer myself now...)
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Love always, deeply and true ★ Friends are those rare people who ask how we are and then wait to hear the answer. ★ Friendship is sharing openly, laughing often, trusting always, caring deeply.
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09-05-2007, 11:21 AM | #189 | |||
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For instance, there are atoms or there are not atoms. I own a computer or I do not. Humans need food to survive or they do not. God exists or he does not. Jesus is God or he is not. The Bible is entirely true or it is partly true or it is not true. All three statements about the Bible are not true, though one person may feel that the Bible is wrong for him and another that the Bible is right for him. Those opinions about the Bible have nothing to do with whether or not the Bible itself is true outside of personal opinion. I am convinced that there is only one truth and I also strongly believe that Christianity is it, but God is so big that it would be absurd for someone as small as me to think that I know it all . Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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09-05-2007, 12:23 PM | #190 | |
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I'm glad to hear you're more open to differences in truth towards religion than I started to fear you were I gave up on finding "THE truth" a few years ago. I have my faith and that is good enough for me. I'm an ecclectic person. The big problem for me is not in the stating that MY truth is THE truth, but that the truth of everyone else is wrong. That's also why I gave up on studying law.
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Love always, deeply and true ★ Friends are those rare people who ask how we are and then wait to hear the answer. ★ Friendship is sharing openly, laughing often, trusting always, caring deeply.
...The Earth laughs in flowers ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson, "Hamatreya"... |
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09-05-2007, 01:31 PM | #191 | ||
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That's where I'm presently at. People from a lot of real Christian denominations, probably from all of them, can know God. Their relationship with him might not be what it should be though, because of doctrinal errors that come from fallible human understanding. Quote:
It's the same way with religion. I have personal experiences with God, as do millions of other people, and plus there are vast quantities of evidences for God's existence aside from personal encounters with him, so I feel certain that he exists. If an atheist comes up to me and says, "no, God does not exist," then I'll know that his truth is wrong. Because we can't both be right. Either God exists or he doesn't. If he just exists for those who believe in him and doesn't exist in a fashion that is independent of human belief, he doesn't have any life of his own but only lives in our minds, so he doesn't actually exist as an independent entity, which is how we believe in him. If he's just my truth or the truth of those who believe in him, he's actually just my belief and the belief of those who believe in him. He has to exist in a manner that is independent of our opinions to be true. Truth has to exist independent of human opinion to be truth. People can be right or wrong about the truth. They can't all be right, because they contradict one another.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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09-05-2007, 03:43 PM | #192 | ||
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I was taught though that Jesus didn't institute the Catholic Church, but that it was founded long after he died. All Jesus gave us where the Ten Commandments and advice. I have heard this once: Christianity is the best idea, but the worst institution. I can't say I agree with it completely, but it does hold some truth. Quote:
Personally, I always feel that it doesn't matter how you call Him as long as you acknowledge him and let his influence show in your life and share it with others. To get back on-topic, I would allow people from all religions and believes though I would want to have a quota on the number of members of one religion in the beginning, just to prevent extremism. Don't you think it's funny though, that Buddhism and the sorts, which are more a philosophy, can go hand in hand with other religions whereas the major religions start killing eachother off in the name of God or whatever?
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Love always, deeply and true ★ Friends are those rare people who ask how we are and then wait to hear the answer. ★ Friendship is sharing openly, laughing often, trusting always, caring deeply.
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09-05-2007, 03:49 PM | #193 | |||
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But if one of those sisters was adopted, it might be both true for you (she's your sister) and not true (she's not related to you by blood). Similarly, if your mother had had other children who were adopted out, you might count two MORE sisters. If your father had had children with someone else (which he might not even know, much less tell you about) you would have 3 more "brothers" and another "sister" to count. So here we are, with an ordinary daily issue, "How many sibs Lief has" and a "true" number that ranges from 3 to 4 (your true number) to 6 to 10. And that's before anyone gets into fetus counts. All with no alteration in GOD'S truth, but just in human understanding. That's what makes the sharing of religious certainty such a tricky business. At root, it's the sharing of personal understanding, because most people have cups too small and weak to retain much of the actual material of direct revelation. Quote:
Another great text for this is "Thou shalt not kill." Most people see this as negotiable, based on what "thou" means, and on what "kill" means. So, It's okay for governments or communities to kill, because they aren't "thou". That gives us war and the death penalty. Or it's okay to kill mousquitos and beef cattle, because it's not really "killing" because God meant "don't kill your human neighbors without some form of trial." I feel sure there will be a time when each of us knows how close our guesses to actual truth are, and I expect Heaven rings with laughter when we assert we have it down. Until we try to impose it on others, when the mood becomes more somber.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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09-05-2007, 03:52 PM | #194 | |
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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09-05-2007, 04:11 PM | #195 |
Elf Lady
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Well, you know what I mean.
At least... I think you do?
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Love always, deeply and true ★ Friends are those rare people who ask how we are and then wait to hear the answer. ★ Friendship is sharing openly, laughing often, trusting always, caring deeply.
...The Earth laughs in flowers ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson, "Hamatreya"... |
09-05-2007, 04:13 PM | #196 | |
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Love always, deeply and true ★ Friends are those rare people who ask how we are and then wait to hear the answer. ★ Friendship is sharing openly, laughing often, trusting always, caring deeply.
...The Earth laughs in flowers ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson, "Hamatreya"... |
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09-05-2007, 05:21 PM | #197 | |
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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09-05-2007, 05:43 PM | #198 | |||||
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The Catholic Church's origin is a rather debatable point, perhaps. They believe that they were founded when Jesus told Peter, "You will be called Peter, and upon this rock I shall build my church." Catholics interpret that as the founding of the papacy, and a number of the Early Church Fathers said the same. http://www.catholic.com/library/Orig...er_as_Pope.asp I don't know that the papacy did a very bad job as an institution, either. I know that that's a modern consensus to a large extent, but I don't trust the modern consensus in the least, and I strongly distrust the effort to eliminate the ecclesiastical heirarchy from the church, for that heirarchy provides oversight essential to keep out heresy. Though a number of denominations outside of Catholicism are drifting into heresy now anyway . That fact is causing further free thinking on doctrine on the part of the break-away movement, such as KINGDOM NOW and other such groups. That concerns me. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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09-05-2007, 06:12 PM | #199 | ||||
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This goes for the rest of your family questioning about truths, as well. Those also are non-contradictory cases, and so aren't actually questions that hack into absolute truth but rather they hack into what is meant by sister or family member. You've succeeded in showing that the human language can be pretty vague, but not in showing that truth itself is vague. This is one reason why we have the Holy Spirit as our Counselor, to help us to see what is meant in cases where we don't understand God's will. Thankfully, major doctrines are repeated in multiple places in the Bible too, so that also helps. By the way, I'd appreciate it if you'd not make examples such as "If your father had had children with someone else . . ." if you please. There are far better ways of making the point you were trying to make, at least one of which you utilized in a good way, without using this kind of analogy. I'd appreciate it if you edited it out of your post. Quote:
In many cases, the contradictions between religions are clear and blatant. It takes a lot of twisting of words and messages to try to force them into harmony. If basic statements of fact in religious texts and whole passages that are contradictory are actually analogies of various kinds, then I think religion itself would be essentially worthless. For if that's the case, then we could not understand a thing God's talking about and would be forming all of our decisions and ideas about religion on our own without any assistance from any religion. Then it would be subjective, in the human mind, and comes down to being imagination. We'd be believing in our imaginings. Quote:
That's another reason why it may help to have a divinely inspired Catholic Church capable of accurately interpreting doctrine. Quote:
We believe that laws should exist against stealing. That's imposing our view about actual truth that stealing is harmful upon other people.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 09-05-2007 at 06:30 PM. |
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09-05-2007, 07:54 PM | #200 | |||
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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