Ambivalence of "Knowledge"?

ged · 03-20-2002, 06:53 AM

Hi all,

I only read LOTR and the Silmarillion plus parts of Unfinished Tales as of yet, so sorry if this aspect is maybe picked up in another book...

Even when I first read LOTR (w/o knowledge of Silmarillion) I wondered if the Ring could stand for knowledge and I applied this concept to our modern science-oriented approach to the world. Not as an analogy; Tolkien himself disliked analogies, like to the events of WW2, but "allowed" readers to apply his ideas.

After reading the Silmarillion, my impression grew but were also modified a bit and I wonder what you think of it.

Most notably "knowlegde" seemed to gain an ambivalent feature that I see reflected in Aule and Melkor. Both are "creators". The main difference is the motivation: Melkor creates to gain power, Aule creates because he likes it (ie, without "bad" intensions). But even as Aule creates with good intensions, he can fail and sometimes create "nearly-disasters", like the creation of dwarves (I can't help feelinh reminded of the Golem saga, or Genetics as modern scientific discipline).

This Aule-Melkor ambivalence continues in the characters of their Maiar. Sauron was originally a Valar of Aule, and just later became one of Melkor. Also the origins of the Istari (wizards) are notable, namely Saruman having been a Maiar of Aule (a fact that was also stressed in the Istari essay in the Unfinished Tales), which naturally represents a familiarity between Saruman and Sauron.

If I apply this whole complex to our world of today, I wonder what it could mean to us. Originally, by only reading LOTR, I saw science represented in the Ring and its destruction as try to destroy knowledge which does harm to men (and could not agree with it). Now it seems to me that the Ring represents science with the intension to gain power, how Sauron tried to mislead humans curiosity.

Ged

Dwarven Sen · 03-20-2002, 10:13 AM

OK leave Aule alone !!!!

I understand what you are getting at but i think if you look a little too deeply into serious comparisons it can affect your judgements on this reality and theirs. I mean you start thinking about who in middle earth would use electricity and to what extent would it change the nature of power.

My personal view is that the ring is more like the objectification(a bit like personification but with objects) of the christian church in the dark ages of europe:
It caused a fear of magic and witchcraftery.
It also managed to keep in power through fear(admittedly the ring made people scared to touch it and the church made people scared to leave)
Science has itself almost come to a dead stop while it is in power
Because of past events its consequences and actions will never wholly be forgotten.

But you really shouldnt let me talk like this.(Lord) Tolkien himself would hate me for that little comment

markedel · 03-20-2002, 07:53 PM

Have you read the introductory letter in the Sil. The matter of sub-creation and the nature of sub-creation touches on this point.

Ñólendil · 03-20-2002, 08:15 PM

Very interesting points. I can't say as I disagree with any of it. The ability to make things is a perilous thing, especially when the maker is very skilled. When you get to the great and mighty Makers, like Aulë and Melkor/Morgoth, the peril is even greater. One must ask "what can one make" and "why". We ourselves as Men (men and women of the Humane race) can make devastating things, weapons of mass destruction that could wipe out Arda. Imagine what a Vala could do, unopposed. The same goes for Maiar.

Power is not necessarily a bad thing, but usually it is abused, and the power to make may be one of the leading "abused powers". Melkor desired to create as Eru did, and when he couldn't he used his skill of making to corrupt and he plotted to unmake everything that existed. Sauron became obsessed with ruling others and he used his skills to dominate other minds and wills. Saruman found the technology of the machine most useful and became a tyrant in the shadow of the Dark Lord, following in his footsteps.

I think Aulë merely suffered from impatience.

Nibs · 03-20-2002, 09:17 PM

If you'll recall, Melkor merely perverted the results of the Valar's toil. All of his "creations" were warped images of what they were intended to be.

Very interesting comparison, however. There are so many examples like this that one could speculate on, it's ridiculous (i.e., why elves were immortal but humans were given the "strange gift" of death).

Dwarven Sen · 03-21-2002, 04:30 AM

Unopposed I think anyone has the ability to control the weaknesses of others. Obviously a valar or maiar would obtain their power more swiftly but men have the strength of mind to obtain what they desire and when allowed to continue the effects can be devastating. That is why it is necessary to fight back

bropous · 03-21-2002, 02:38 PM

Well, of course, we are ALL "human", Nolendil, but can you say with any certainty that we are all "humane"?

*wink!*

Good posts, folks.

Wulažg · 04-09-2002, 04:22 PM

In theory anyone could "create", but creating something has no innate power. I mean, people could create things all they wanted, but unless they were very good, it was a normal creation. Only those who made nearly perfect things got any power, most of which was transferred to the creation. Power is by no means corruption, just a big target for outside influences that wish to corrupt plus fuel for the little bit of corruption in us all because the song was marred.

I agree with bropous, and more to the point, other people agree that I might not be juman. The ears are a bit of a givaway.

*wink*

Ñólendil · 04-10-2002, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Well, of course, we are ALL "human", Nolendil, but can you say with any certainty that we are all "humane"?

A good point of your own. I can say with certainty that we are all ... corporeally "humane", but I would be a liar if I said that that truth extended to the heart and spirit of us all.

03-20-2002, 06:53 AM	#1
ged Sapling Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 4	Ambivalence of "Knowledge"? Hi all, I only read LOTR and the Silmarillion plus parts of Unfinished Tales as of yet, so sorry if this aspect is maybe picked up in another book... Even when I first read LOTR (w/o knowledge of Silmarillion) I wondered if the Ring could stand for knowledge and I applied this concept to our modern science-oriented approach to the world. Not as an analogy; Tolkien himself disliked analogies, like to the events of WW2, but "allowed" readers to apply his ideas. After reading the Silmarillion, my impression grew but were also modified a bit and I wonder what you think of it. Most notably "knowlegde" seemed to gain an ambivalent feature that I see reflected in Aule and Melkor. Both are "creators". The main difference is the motivation: Melkor creates to gain power, Aule creates because he likes it (ie, without "bad" intensions). But even as Aule creates with good intensions, he can fail and sometimes create "nearly-disasters", like the creation of dwarves (I can't help feelinh reminded of the Golem saga, or Genetics as modern scientific discipline). This Aule-Melkor ambivalence continues in the characters of their Maiar. Sauron was originally a Valar of Aule, and just later became one of Melkor. Also the origins of the Istari (wizards) are notable, namely Saruman having been a Maiar of Aule (a fact that was also stressed in the Istari essay in the Unfinished Tales), which naturally represents a familiarity between Saruman and Sauron. If I apply this whole complex to our world of today, I wonder what it could mean to us. Originally, by only reading LOTR, I saw science represented in the Ring and its destruction as try to destroy knowledge which does harm to men (and could not agree with it). Now it seems to me that the Ring represents science with the intension to gain power, how Sauron tried to mislead humans curiosity. Ged Last edited by ged : 03-20-2002 at 07:43 AM.

03-20-2002, 10:13 AM	#2
Dwarven Sen Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Edinburgh University Library Posts: 410	OK leave Aule alone !!!! I understand what you are getting at but i think if you look a little too deeply into serious comparisons it can affect your judgements on this reality and theirs. I mean you start thinking about who in middle earth would use electricity and to what extent would it change the nature of power. My personal view is that the ring is more like the objectification(a bit like personification but with objects) of the christian church in the dark ages of europe: It caused a fear of magic and witchcraftery. It also managed to keep in power through fear(admittedly the ring made people scared to touch it and the church made people scared to leave) Science has itself almost come to a dead stop while it is in power Because of past events its consequences and actions will never wholly be forgotten. But you really shouldnt let me talk like this.(Lord) Tolkien himself would hate me for that little comment __________________ Destroy the dementors not the demented. Dont heckle the supervillain Note to Self: Remember that sarcasm is hard to detect from text. What ever you do, don't click this link! my LJ

03-20-2002, 07:53 PM	#3
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	Have you read the introductory letter in the Sil. The matter of sub-creation and the nature of sub-creation touches on this point. __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

03-20-2002, 08:15 PM	#4
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Very interesting points. I can't say as I disagree with any of it. The ability to make things is a perilous thing, especially when the maker is very skilled. When you get to the great and mighty Makers, like Aulë and Melkor/Morgoth, the peril is even greater. One must ask "what can one make" and "why". We ourselves as Men (men and women of the Humane race) can make devastating things, weapons of mass destruction that could wipe out Arda. Imagine what a Vala could do, unopposed. The same goes for Maiar. Power is not necessarily a bad thing, but usually it is abused, and the power to make may be one of the leading "abused powers". Melkor desired to create as Eru did, and when he couldn't he used his skill of making to corrupt and he plotted to unmake everything that existed. Sauron became obsessed with ruling others and he used his skills to dominate other minds and wills. Saruman found the technology of the machine most useful and became a tyrant in the shadow of the Dark Lord, following in his footsteps. I think Aulë merely suffered from impatience. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

03-20-2002, 09:17 PM	#5
Nibs Head Hollara Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 751	If you'll recall, Melkor merely perverted the results of the Valar's toil. All of his "creations" were warped images of what they were intended to be. Very interesting comparison, however. There are so many examples like this that one could speculate on, it's ridiculous (i.e., why elves were immortal but humans were given the "strange gift" of death). __________________ "People used to ring up and say 'Don't quit your day job' or 'sell your synth', but the joke's on them: we were fired and the synth is broken!" -John Flansburgh from They Might Be Giants Ever heard of Mormons? I'm one. Click here to know more about us.

03-21-2002, 04:30 AM	#6
Dwarven Sen Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Edinburgh University Library Posts: 410	Unopposed I think anyone has the ability to control the weaknesses of others. Obviously a valar or maiar would obtain their power more swiftly but men have the strength of mind to obtain what they desire and when allowed to continue the effects can be devastating. That is why it is necessary to fight back __________________ Destroy the dementors not the demented. Dont heckle the supervillain Note to Self: Remember that sarcasm is hard to detect from text. What ever you do, don't click this link! my LJ

03-21-2002, 02:38 PM	#7
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Well, of course, we are ALL "human", Nolendil, but can you say with any certainty that we are all "humane"? wink! Good posts, folks. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

04-09-2002, 04:22 PM	#8
Wulažg Elven Warrior Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Naperville, IL Posts: 306	In theory anyone could "create", but creating something has no innate power. I mean, people could create things all they wanted, but unless they were very good, it was a normal creation. Only those who made nearly perfect things got any power, most of which was transferred to the creation. Power is by no means corruption, just a big target for outside influences that wish to corrupt plus fuel for the little bit of corruption in us all because the song was marred. I agree with bropous, and more to the point, other people agree that I might not be juman. The ears are a bit of a givaway. wink

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