Elves, widowhood, and remarriage

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I'm reading "Of Turin..." in Silm right now and while going through Gwindor's discussion with Finduilas I had some thoughts and questions for discussion.

He mentions how intermarriage is no good because humans are short-lived and the Elf is left in widowhood for as long as the world lasts. Is that really necessary? What prohibits an Elf from remarrying another mortal? I understand the restriction on remarriage of Elves because the 'dead' spouse could come back at any time, marriage is forever, etc. But when a Man is dead, he's gone forever.

The way I see it, Finduilas could have married Turin until he died, then gone back and married another Man or even Gwindor.

Another thought/question I had was this: if Elves die unmarried, spend some time in the Hall with Mandy, then re-up with a fresh body in Valinor, can they then marry? If so, could Gwindor and Finduilas possibly hook up after all, when he comes back with his youthful good looks? Similar question for Finrod and Amarie; are they able to marry now that he's back to life? Why or why not?

[Noble Elf Lord]

I'd say that one viable question to ask is whether they were able to marry because of physical things, or of spiritual, or even of moral reasons. Perhaps it was considered immoral for an Elf to think "Hey, I'll marry this human for some ? years, and when (s)he's dead, to heck with her(/him), I'll just catch an Elf then.

Evil...

[Noble Elf Lord]

Another thought on widowhood - perhaps the bond between an Elf and a human at that time was so deep that even attempting to severe it would cause tremendous grief. Elven love is perhaps too strong for a human, and vice versa. The Elf feels like that he/she doesn't get enough of that relationship, kinda like for ex. if a human man feels like (of love) he's drinking a very very strong wine, and the Elven maiden feels like she's sipping strawberry juice, longing for that wine.

[jammi567]

I agree with NEL. I seem to remember reading something in the Silmarillion that said that Finwe was exceptioal precisely because he was one of very, very few Elves to actually marry again, let alone have another two kids.

[Varnafindë]

And Finwë's main reason for wanting to remarry was initially just that: to have more children.

[Noble Elf Lord]

Originally Posted by jammi567

I agree with NEL. I seem to remember reading something in the Silmarillion that said that Finwe was exceptioal precisely because he was one of very, very few Elves to actually marry again, let alone have another two kids.

Isn't this the first time someone agrees with me wholly? Thanks, jammi.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

So is it safe to say that this Elvish morality regarding marriage is partly, if not wholly, a product of their longevity? And that this aspect of moral code has no practical application to Men?

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

So is it safe to say that this Elvish morality regarding marriage is partly, if not wholly, a product of their longevity? And that this aspect of moral code has no practical application to Men?

From a Catholic point of view - and remember, Tolkien was a devout Catholic - divorce should be avoided if at all possible. Particularly in Valinor, the Elves were in (or supposed to be in) a perfect world. That it turned out to be something less than perfect is the hinge upon which the whole tale turns...

Tolkien wrote an essay, “Laws and Customs of the Eldar�, in which he discusses as considerable length the remarriage of Finwë after Þerindë,* his first wife, gave up the ghost. Because of the problems associated with the decision to permit Finwë to remarry, the Valar decreed that it was a one-time exception.

As for Elves and Men, I cannot say, and as far as I know, neither does Tolkien say. The elf-maiden Mithrellas, a companion of Nimrodel, married Imrazôr of Belfalas and bore him at least one son, Galador, Lord of Dol Amroth, forbear of Prince Imrahil in LotR. (Non sequitur: Whether Galador was the first Lord of Dol Amroth, or a new Lord of Dol Amroth, is not clear; Imrazôr does not appear to have been Lord of Dol Amroth.) After Galador was born, she went missing: she simply vanished, and I believe the folk of Gondor – and Imrazôr – assumed she sailed into the West. Now, did Mithrellas spend the rest of the existence of Arda in chastity, pining for Imrazôr? Did she simply put the whole business out of her mind? Did she remarry a handsome Elf from Eldamar? And what does this say about the morality (as we mortals see such things) of a mother who abandons her child?

-|-

* "Þerindë" is pronounced "Thĕ-rin'-day". Þ is the Anglo-Saxon letter called thorn, and carries the th- sound.

Fëanor was insulted when the Noldor changed its pronunciation to Serindë, moving the Þ to S.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Tolkien wrote an essay, “Laws and Customs of the Eldar�, in which he discusses as considerable length the remarriage of Finwë after Þerindë,* his first wife, gave up the ghost. Because of the problems associated with the decision to permit Finwë to remarry, the Valar decreed that it was a one-time exception.

Or at least something dependent upon the finality of the dead Elf's decision not to come back to life, and setting a minimum length for how long she should consider her decision before it was accepted as final.

I think they gave her twelve years, which isn't much for an Elf, and a few hundred years later she seems to have regretted her decision

And what does this say about the morality (as we mortals see such things) of a mother who abandons her child?

Remarriage aside, what about her abandoning Fëanor?

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

Remarriage aside, what about her abandoning Fëanor?

I was not considering Þerindë, but Mithrellas, who abandoned Galador. Þerindë was exhausted: she apparently continued for many years, until Fëanor was old enough to plead with her to remain, if memory serves me correctly. (I am very lazily not dragging out my books tonight, and so I am leaving myself open to contradiction on this point.) I think she was not only exhausted by the experience of childbirth, but perhaps also by childrearing: can you imagine what kind of child Fëanor must have been? And Elves are children much longer than Men…

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

...at least something dependent upon the finality of the dead Elf's decision not to come back to life, and setting a minimum length for how long she should consider her decision before it was accepted as final.

I think they gave her twelve years, which isn't much for an Elf, and a few hundred years later she seems to have regretted her decision ...

Þerindë refused to leave Mandos. She was under no obligation to be there, as were most Elves: in fact, I believe she was the only Elf who ever chose to go to Mandos. It certainly appeared to the Valar that she would never leave, and the decision to permit Finwë to marry Indis was based upon that consideration. I do not recall that it was a mere 12 years; but then, I am too lazy (and exhausted) tonight to open the books and check it myself.

Þerindë did eventually leave Mandos: after Fëanor rebelled and died in Middle-earth, having led the Noldor to a ruinous revolt.

[Curufin]

Re: Finrod and Amárië, it has always been my belief that they did remarry (or marry) when he was re-embodied in Valinor. I'm not dragging out my books right now, but there is one version where it says that "Finrod walks in Valinor with Amárië," which I assumed to mean that they were, indeed, together.

I remember reading also (it could have been in Laws and Customs) that it would be expected for a re-embodied elf to remarry his first spouse, as their fëar would still meet in the same way. Maybe I'll stop being lazy and look this up at some point.

[Alcuin]

That one I recall: in Silmarillion, of Beren and Lúthien, the text reads,

[Beren, Lúthien, and Huan] buried the body of Felagund upon the hill-top of his own isle, and it was clean again; and the green grave of Finrod Finarfin’s son, fairest of all the princes of the Elves, remained inviolate, until the land was changed and broken, and foundered under destroying seas. But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the tress in Eldamar.

There may certainly be another version in one of the HoME books that replaces Finarfin with Amárië; it is all the same, I think.

The Elves remained married – for good. No divorce. Separation was possible: Nerdanel was estranged from her husband Fëanor (and their sons) following the dreadful Oath, and particularly his murder of the folk of Alqualondë; but Finwë consented to remain in Mandos after his required term of waiting was completed so that MÃ*riel might walk free in Valinor: otherwise, he would have been married to both MÃ*riel and Indis at the same time. My read on this is that once married, the Elves were forever married: if one of them died, he or she went to Mandos, was eventually re-embodied by the Valar, released, and then went on to live a more or less normal life. If one or both were killed, they remained married, if separated, and when reunited, they knew one another and apparently resumed that relationship.

Tolkien wrote that physical relationships among Elves changed as they aged, so that they were no longer physically intimate (or very rarely so); and the time of life in which they bore children was left behind as they aged, even as with the Hildor (Men). I do not know if re-embodied Elves might have born children if they had not had any before and desired them: I cannot recall that Tolkien addressed that issue.

Amárië did not rebel against the Valar; Finrod followed reluctantly, but that was rebellion. They were separated, but after Finrod spent his required time of waiting in the Halls of Mandos, there was nothing that prevented him from reuniting with Amárië.

This was the whole point of contention with the Númenóreans after the days of Tar-Ciryatan. The Elves died, went to the Halls of Waiting, waited and considered their lives and deeds, were examined by Námo Mandos, and released to live again. There does not seem to have been any restriction laid upon them except that (if I remember correctly) they could no longer leave Valinor (and Eldamar, which was the coastland of “mainland� Valinor). In that regard, Glorfindel appears to be the lone exception: he returned to Middle-earth. The Númenóreans coveted the immortality (actually not immortality, but extreme longevity) of the Elves. Why should the Elves enjoy unending life in Arda, they might well have argued, when they rebelled? They are not punished (in the sense of being kept from participation in life in Arda), so why should we suffer this fate?

[Curufin]

There may certainly be another version in one of the HoME books that replaces Finarfin with Amárië; it is all the same, I think.

I think it's in one of the Annals in Home X, but I'm too lazy to look it up. I know there is one where Amárië, not Finarfin, is mentioned, though.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

*"Þerindë" is pronounced "Thĕ-rin'-day". Þ is the Anglo-Saxon letter called thorn, and carries the th- sound.

Also, the Eldarin thorn here is a bit different from the interdental -th- as in think (pronounced with the tip of the tongue between the teeth). The Elvish þ in þerinde was dental -- rather the tongue-tip behind the back of the upper front teeth, and thus closer to s.

If the detail here is new to anyone 'you' can now read the Silmarillion again with this in mind.

You know who you are

[Amanda]

The very idea of remarrying is a bitter one, bitter more so if you're an Elf. Someone you love with all your soul is gone, and there's nothing that can replace them. But somehow they get replaced anyway. If it's remarrying to carry on the line, then yes, it had to be done, but as far as any replacement, I don't know if he would have been all that happy ever again after his first wife departed. Finwe was one of the first, and back then grief wasn't such a common thing as it became in the future. So a grief like that must have been particularly difficult to bear.

The act of separation or divorce on the other hand is definitely unthinkable and is like one of the greatest disasters any Elf can imagine. It's demoralizing to say the least. In some cultures, marriage happens when.... a couple shows their love to each other. After that time, "being with" someone else is unthinkable.

When you are finally taken to the Halls of Mandos after having remarried... you will see both the one you lost and the one you are currently with. *Awkward* I would imagine that such an arrangement would be quite difficult to manage, and then there is the grief of it all.