Tolkien biased against Women of Middle Earth?

[Finarfin-1]

Hey,
I'll speed to my point quickly, lest my title seem trollish:

In all examples provided us during the Silmarillion and the Lord of the Rings of Elves and Humans becoming romantically involved it seems that it always fell to the woman in the equation to sacrifice her higher nature for love of a man, or that at the very least circumstances would always raise the man up to her level.
Allow me to explain.

When Melian fell in love with Thingol the references and implications are VERY strong that she became much more ties to the flesh than any Maia before or since. We find the greatest evidence in the text of this at the death of Thingol, when Melian seems to become again what she was at first, before their meeting in Nan Elmoth. Ie: For the duration of their marriage Melian essentially became an Elven woman. With exceptional powers certainly, but seeming the more limited than others of her kind. This however isn't a terribly clear example of my point.

Then we have Luthien, who sacrifices her immortality for love of Beren. The child of one of the greatest of the Elves of the Light and one of the Ainur become mortal woman. This is the very first good example of what I'm saying. If it was a solitary occurrence it would simply remain a beautifully romantic plot device.

Then we have Aegnor and Andreth. This is the only example we have of Tolkien going in a different direction, somewhat, though the implication is the same. In this case it is the male of the "higher" station in life, possessed of immortality. Aegnor not only remains immortal, he withdraws from the woman he loves completely.

Then we have Arwen and Aragorn, a repeat of the Luthien/Beren romance, where the female sacrifices her immortality to become as the man she loves is.

Now, let's step back a bit, to the only example we have of a mortal man taking to bride an Elvish woman who doesn't end up mortal for his sake: Tuor and Idril, daughter or Turgon.

Tuor, a full-blooded human is the Great Exception. "Alone of Mortal Men his fate was accounted with the Firstborn." Not Half-Elven, simply raised to immortality and somehow *become* Elven. This time the woman isn't forced to sacrifice. Instead the Man is somehow raised to her level.

Then comes the Half-Elvish judgment of Manwe, neatly in time to explain Earendil's exaltation to immortality to remain forever with his Elvish wife, Elwing.

There are enough instances here to call a pattern. In all cases of requited love between Humans and Elves in Middle Earth the woman if Elvish either ends up mortal, or with a formerly mortal husband somehow become immortal.

No cases have we of Elvish men sacrificing their immortality to be with a mortal woman. Of Mortal Men married to immortal women we have none, with all becoming immortal themselves or watching as their wives become as they are.

What does this say about how Tolkien saw romance/the interactions between the sexes?

I see a definite Male > Female pattern coming from the author, even if an unconscious one. What do others think?

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I see the opposite. I see the viewpoint that males are less apt to humble themselves to seek a mate from a lower station and that they are likewise proud in that they will often pursue those from a higher one.

[The last sane person]

That kind of strikes me as the SAME viewpoint, rather. As males, they're more proud, more lofty and genereally more choosey then females, thus they can get a high born female to more or less sacrifice THEIR even higher station in life to join in union with a lesser male. And finally, when one elven male falls for a mortal woman, he gives up completely and doesn't sacrifice a thing, and rather abandones the whole project. Men are decidedly getting the better end of the deal here.

Very good point Finarfin 1!

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

They're getting the better end of the deal. That doesn't mean Tolkien is portraying Male>Female. Unless I don't know what > means anymore.

[Midge]

I'm going to guess "greater than".

I don't know. I've thought of that too, at times. I think it's just the make-up of men and women. They're different. I've seen it in other books, too. A book I have that's a fairy tale talks about how men living a life on the road won't leave it for a woman, but a woman who loves the road will leave it for a man. The author of this book, of course, had to be ironic and make the heroine's destiny be that she was stuck on a rock, and the guy she loved was a traveling man and he joined her on the rock. But still... The quote and the point is made.

Unless a necessity dictates otherwise, men generally do what they want, while women do what's left. It's becoming less so now, but in ages past, that's what has happened.

[Finarfin-1]

Well,
Personally it makes me sad. As a man who generally has preferred the company and friendship of women to that of other men (with exceptions of course, I'm just not terribly fond of the unemotional, thoughtless and often malicious at-the-expense of others humor and behavior many men seem to exhibit) I've always had a great respect and admiration for women. That said, I'm not one of those who enjoys putting the fair sex up on a pedestal. I've seen enough downright dangerously short-tempered pre-menstrual and pregnant women. Enough fluff-headed little players, who enjoy stringing us hapless suckers along not to realize that there's good and bad in equal proportion in both sexes.

I would've loved to see a more cosmopolitan view taken by Tolkien on the matter of romances between the Firstborn and Followers. Even though he was a product of his times, Tolkien was also an extremely educated man, more than familiar with history and a great breadth of historical writings. All of which were littered with examples of princes giving up their place amongst royalty to be with a woman who couldn't be part of the "royal scene".

I think it would have added something, as well as being a truer reading of the nature of *good* men in love. If my beloved was immortal yes I would try to figure out a way to join her, not to suit my pride, just so we could be together forever. However, if I was unable to do so then I would savor the time we did have and take Andreth's position afterwards. I'd just be a little smarter about it. One day when I felt that I'd come to an age that being with me was making a mockery of her life as it should be I'd execute the plan I would have put in place years before for that moment, and disappear beyond the ability of my deathless spouse to find me. It would break my heart, but I would give in to pride at least so far as to not allow my radiantly undying beloved to spend 5-10yrs chained to a withered dried-up old man.

I'm sure Tolkien considered other ideas, but something made him go the way he did on the issue. I find it insulting when it's implied as a stereotype that women are always the ones willing to sacrifice the most for love. It isn't true!

Just wish I knew what went through the great author's mind about all this

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

But, in addition to the business about undying love, there's the plain fact that woman have so little they want to do.

That's one of the things that fascinates me about the entwives. They had something they wanted to do, and they went out to do it.

How unusual is that?

[Finarfin-1]

::nods::

That's why Galadriel is one of my absolute favorite characters. She left Valinor not because of some mad quest to fight a demigod over some jewels they had no hope of getting back, but because she wanted to found/rule a kingdom of her own. Unlike so many Noldo women she wasn't content just to be a happy little incubator of new elvish warriors and sages, she got her hands dirty, stuck it out, and realized her dreams with her own blood, sweat and tears. Did a much better job of it than her peers too, considering Lorien was the ONLY 2nd Age kingdom to survive until the end of the Third Age. (Cirdan's Havens don't count, as he undoubtedly had tacit aid from the Valar, since they wouldn't have allowed the remaining Elves to be deprived of their ability to set sail into the West. Plus, the argument can be made that without the timely downfall of Numenor Sauron may well have finished off the Havens and Gil-Gilad's kingdom)

As I said in another thread, I also admire her for being the ONLY Noldo of royal blood to depart Valinor with the rebel hosts and then return in her own body. Can thumb her nose for eternity at the Doom of Mandos :P "Slain ye can be, and slain ye shall be my ass, Lord Namo"

So, I'm curious now. What's the opinion of those here? Do you think that Tolkien was correct, that women are generally more willing to sacrifice their dreams and strength for love then men are?

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Finarfin-1

:
:
There are enough instances here to call a pattern. In all cases of requited love between Humans and Elves in Middle Earth the woman if Elvish either ends up mortal, or with a formerly mortal husband somehow become immortal.

No cases have we of Elvish men sacrificing their immortality to be with a mortal woman. Of Mortal Men married to immortal women we have none, with all becoming immortal themselves or watching as their wives become as they are.

What does this say about how Tolkien saw romance/the interactions between the sexes?

I see a definite Male > Female pattern coming from the author, even if an unconscious one. What do others think?

This is not the way I have seen it.

Remember that one of Tolkien's earliest stories was about Beren and Luthien - and remember that he related that story, and those characters, to his wife and himself. He loved his wife enough to think that she was too good for him - that he had 'married up' to get her.

If he saw the Elves as a 'higher' race, he showed this by having a few marriages where mortal men 'married up' with Elvish women. In no case that we know of (sorry fangirls), do we see an Elvish man 'marry down' to a mortal woman. The only one that seems to have been in the realm of possibility was the Aegnor and Andreth episode that you mention.

I don't think it's biased against women.

Remember as well that Tolkien was drawing much from ancient fairy tales. I don't recall offhand Mortal-Faery marriages, though I suppose there are some. Who knows of any? In any case, if they exist I suspect there would be more of mortal males marrying faery females - because in those stories, men would be more likely to go out adventuring and come upon the world of faery.

I wonder though...

I sure don't think there was anything we might label a 'sexist agenda' on JRRT's part. Even subconsciously.

[Vidugavia]

Don't forget the silvan elf Mithrellas who slipped away in the night, leaving her husband Imrazor and her children.

[Zilbanne]

J.R.R.T was from the time in which men had most of the glorious adventures. He was well aware that women in society often sacrificed their higher nature for men. However I believe he loved women deeply in their own right and knew what women are truly capable of. The lives and choices of Galadriel and Eowyn are good examples of this and there are others.

[Willow Oran]

Then comes the Half-Elvish judgment of Manwe, neatly in time to explain Earendil's exaltation to immortality to remain forever with his Elvish wife, Elwing.

This is a massive misinterpretation. Elwing and Earendil were both half elven and were both given the choice to be mortal or immortal. Earendil wanted to be mortal but deferred to his wife and allowed her to choose for both of them and she chose immortality. I fail to see how a husband allowing his wife to make such a decision for them both is even remotely sexist.

To claim a pattern of sexism in Middle Earth's romances is tempting given the predominace of male characters; but it is an anachronistic analysis and inappropriate given the source material that Tolkien was drawing inspiration from. Analyzed in context of the epic tradition Tolkien's female characters are very modern.

For example: In the Lay of Leithian it's Luthien who rescues Beren, she's the one in control and providing the means for their survival. In the Fall of Gondolin it's Idril who commisions the secret tunnel to be built and thus enables the survivors to escape. As I've already pointed out, Elwing makes the choice for both herself and Earendil. The pattern here is of women being in control and having the power to make choices and take action. And while many of the actions they take are for the sake of love - that's the nature of the genre and the same statement is applicable to the actions and choices made by the males in those same stories.