"Falling" - and Repentance and Redemption in LOTR

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ñólendil
Thanks for the comments RÃ*an. I don't have time now to respond, just wanted to let you know that I read them, and that understand what you meant much better now.

Something I came across t'other night on the whole idea of realities (a fairy is talking to a prince about a princess he's just seen) :

from "The Back of the North Wind", by George MacDonald

"Do you like her?" asked the fairy.

"Oh! don't I?" said the prince. "More than you would believe, mother."

"A fairy can believe anything that ever was or ever could be," said the old woman.

"Then you are a fairy?" asked the prince.

"Yes," said she.

"Then what do you do for things not to believe?" asked the prince.

"There's plenty of them - everything that never was nor ever could be."

I think that expresses what I was trying to say really well.

And I like how the conversation ends - they go on a bit more, then MacDonald writes: "But he could get nothing more out of the fairy, and had to go to bed unanswered, which was something of a trial."

[Rían]

*bump*

Where'd that Ñólendil go? I thought he'd like that quote ...

[Valandil]

Actually just spotted a similar thread on a different MB... and someone had pointed out about a whole 'People-Group' which applies to this:

The Dead Men of Dunharrow!

[Rían]

Oh, that's right! Interesting concept about an unfulfilled oath keeping you bound to the place (i.e., ME) where you made it until it's fulfilled.

[Valandil]

In the case of that Oath... I wonder if there was something special about the Stone of Erech which bound them... or if anyone taking any oath in ME was somewhat more bound than we often suppose we are. We've discussed this a little in another thread before.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think the curse did have something to do with the Stone of Erech because if it wasn't wouldn't they have just left. For they can't have wanted to be properly dead that much because if so why

'The Way is shut, it was made by those who were dead, the dead keep it, the way is shut'

If they wanted death so badly surely they would have stuck something about Isildur's heir and he may enter in it. For if Isildur's heir wasn't as brave as Aragorn or hadn't met Gandalf then they wouldn't be free from their oath.

[Ñólendil]

As it turns out RÃ*an, I did read that quote you posted--I liked it, but I wasn't sure how you were relating it to our conversation. My mind is probably too overloaded at the moment. Actually, you'll have to remind me what we were debating about

It is a nice passage though.

[Thorin II]

Back to Valandil's original post, I suspect the lack of surviving characters who have redeemed themselves says more about JRRT than it does about ME. Perhaps he didn't have much experience with people changing their stripes. It could be a personal cynicism he carried into his writing. Thanks for pointing it out; until you mentioned it, I never really noticed the trend.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yeah. People who did do something majorly wrong repented whilst dying.

[Attalus]

It is also a Christian doctrine that one must lose his life to save it. We have that on the Highest Authority. I suspect that JRRT had that in mind, particularly for Boromir.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Didn't Boromir repent before he was dying, after Frodo had left when he came back into his right mind.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Didn't Boromir repent before he was dying, after Frodo had left when he came back into his right mind.

Please read initial post.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Please read initial post.

LOL, thanks, Val. I'm always itching to tell people that.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

What about Ar-Pharazon. Any chance that he repented before dying?

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

What about Ar-Pharazon. Any chance that he repented before dying?

Doubtful. He hesitated when he got there, but I suspect more in awe and fear than out of true respect and second thoughts about to be obedient (akin to being sorry you did something because of the consequences of getting caught, rather than because it was wrong). Then ultimately his pride mastered him and he went ashore.

No penitence there.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

What about the guy who betrayed Barahir (I forget his name). Do you think he repented?

[Valandil]

I don't know... but we really should keep this discussion to the LOTR novel. There was really no need to discuss Ar-Pharazon.

[Attalus]

All right, just to keep th pot bubbling, this is a duplicate to the post that I made on Val's thread at SF-Fandom:

Originally posted by Michael Martinez:
I am surprised that no one mentioned Frodo's fall (or Galadriel's, for that matter).

I will take a swing at Galadriel's fall, since I have thought about it, much. Galadriel, I believe, fell from Grace through Pride, considering herself the greatest woman in Aman and wishing to govern a realm of her own; and Rage at Fëanor's actions, compounding her own dislike of him. We all know, I think, that actions by those we dislike arouse a fiercer condemnation than folk we like or even are indifferent to. Because of those two Deadly Sins, she forsook the Blessed Realm and symbolically separated her will from Eru's, as well as the Valar's. The death of Fëanor seems to have calmed her down, and we next find her at Doriath, chatting with Melian. Her Rage has died, but she still wants to prove herself greatest of the Eldar women, and seeks a realm of her own. In the passages about the Elessar, she seems still somewhat petulant, too self-regarding. She passes through Moria to Lorinand. This to me seems equivalent to Campbell's Dark Night of the Soul, in which she learns to trust the Dwarves of Durin's folk, thereby enlarging her sympathy, and once in control of Lorinand, she does not even claim the tiltle of Queen, which is humble of her, and tries to govern justly and well. Finally, she is given the Ring by her would-be lover, Celebrimbror. This takes the place of the Ellessar in maintaining Lothlórien, and may be taken as substituing a true Faith for the false one, which she discards by giving it to Aragorn. Her Pride is thus subsumed in her good actions, and she is able to take part in the War against Sauron. Finally, the temptation of the Ruling Ring is held before her, but the wisdom she so hardly acquired saves her, and she is forgiven. That is my take on it.

[Valandil]

* bumpity-bump *