Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth

[Valandil]

* bumpitty-bump *

(and my apologies... I thought this was in The Silmarillion Forum)

[Curufin]

Thanks for finding this! Way too tired to read it all tonight, but I probably will in the morning. Read this essay probably fifteen times, it's my favorite thing that Tolkien wrote.

[Valandil]

I suspected you might like it when you were talking about HoME quotes in the Quote Game.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I just read it for the first time last night. One impression I get is that we just don't know, do we? I mean, different folks have different beliefs about where we're from and where we're going but if we're being honest none of us know for sure whether we're right, the "others" are right, we're both right, or we're both wrong. Or some combination. But one thing is certain, both Finrod and Andreth were richer for having the conversation and for remaining civil whether in agreement or disagreement. We could all take a lesson, I think.

I somehow doubt this was Tolkien's intent (or at least not his main intent) but it's just one reader's impression.

For such a short piece, there is a lot to it.

The part about Eru coming into the world himself made me think of Tom Bombadil.

[Curufin]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

I just read it for the first time last night.

You're lucky. It's an amazing piece the first time around, but it just gets better the more times you read it.

One impression I get is that we just don't know, do we? I mean, different folks have different beliefs about where we're from and where we're going but if we're being honest none of us know for sure whether we're right, the "others" are right, we're both right, or we're both wrong. Or some combination.

Don't know what? If the Elves have a place in the Second Music? Certainly not. It's stated again and again that nobody except Eru knows the answer to that. That's the purpose of estel:

FINROD: Estel we call it, that is 'trust'. It is not defeated by the ways of our world, for it does not come from experience, but from our nature and first being. If we are indeed the Eruhin the Children of the One, then He will not suffer Himself to be deprived of His own, not by any Enemy, not even by ourselves. This is the last foundation of Estel, which we keep even when we contemplate the End...

If you mean that we don't know what happens to Men, well, that's a little trickier. We don't know their exact part in the Second Music - what Andreth and Finrod discuss is simply speculation. But we do know that despite what Andreth believes, Men were not made to live forever in Arda - they were given Death and freedom from the world. Andreth has very obviously fallen under the 'darkness' and 'shadow' with which Melkor has surrounded the Gift of Men.

But one thing is certain, both Finrod and Andreth were richer for having the conversation and for remaining civil whether in agreement or disagreement. We could all take a lesson, I think.

I think this was mainly Finrod. If he hadn't been so cool and noble, Andreth could have been easily provoked several times.

I somehow doubt this was Tolkien's intent (or at least not his main intent) but it's just one reader's impression.

Hmm, I don't know. It very well may have been at least one of Tolkien's intentions:

FINROD: 'Yes, Wise-woman, maybe it was ordained that we Quendi, and ye Atani, ere the world grows old, should meet and bring news one to another, and so we should learn of the Hope from you: ordained, indeed, that thou and I, Andreth, should sit here and speak together, across the gulf that divides our kindreds, so that while the Shadow still broods in the North we should not be wholly afraid.'

For such a short piece, there is a lot to it.

Certainly!

The part about Eru coming into the world himself made me think of Tom Bombadil.

I like that. More seriously, a good friend of mine interprets that as Tolkien's version of the Easter story - of God, in the form of Christ - coming to Earth to save his people. I'm not Christian, but it does make sense.

What affects me the most about the Athrabeth (and even though I've read it uncounted times, it still makes me cry every time I read it), is the hope in the face of despair. The overwhelming hope that Finrod feels for the future, the idea that even though he doesn't know what the future holds for him, he will cling to estel and it will see him through.

Argh! I'm getting misty already! I'd better stop while I'm ahead...

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Don't know what? If the Elves have a place in the Second Music? Certainly not. It's stated again and again that nobody except Eru knows the answer to that. That's the purpose of estel:

"FINROD: Estel we call it, that is 'trust'. It is not defeated by the ways of our world, for it does not come from experience, but from our nature and first being. If we are indeed the Eruhin the Children of the One, then He will not suffer Himself to be deprived of His own, not by any Enemy, not even by ourselves. This is the last foundation of Estel, which we keep even when we contemplate the End..."

If you mean that we don't know what happens to Men, well, that's a little trickier. We don't know their exact part in the Second Music - what Andreth and Finrod discuss is simply speculation. But we do know that despite what Andreth believes, Men were not made to live forever in Arda - they were given Death and freedom from the world. Andreth has very obviously fallen under the 'darkness' and 'shadow' with which Melkor has surrounded the Gift of Men."

I meant we just don't know what's going to happen to us, despite the many varying schools of religious thought in this world. This essay was every bit as much about primary world mankind as it was about Elves and Men of Arda. Tolkien was talking to us through Finrod and Andreth. The thoughts I've posted so far speak only to this world and frankly it has me thinking about it so much that I hardly care what happens in Arda right now.

My mom is 76 years old and we've been having many discussions lately about the impending inevitable, long-term care, insurance, funerals, and the great beyond. Estel is difficult for me. I'm an Amdir kind of guy. I empathize strongly with Andreth in this. I understand the concept of Estel and want to believe but it isn't easy. Maybe it isn't in Man's nature. Maybe it is the marring that makes Estel so hard.

Sorry to bring in the real world but the parallels, especially in matters of faith, are hard not to draw.

But, to step back into Arda for a moment, I don't necessarily agree that Andreth is wrong about Man's original fate. How can you be so sure that she is?

[Curufin]

If it's okay, I'm not going to address the first part of your post, because those are personal reflections, and you don't need my comments on them.

But, to step back into Arda for a moment, I don't necessarily agree that Andreth is wrong about Man's original fate. How can you be so sure that she is?

Well, of course, this is my interpretation, but it is said over and over and over throughout Lord of the Rings, The Silmarillion, The UT and The HoME that Death is the 'Gift of Man,' the gift of Eru to the Atani. In the Ainulindalë Eru speaks of how he will give 'a new gift' to Men - death, and the ability not to be tied to the Fate of Arda, as are the Elves. It also says that Melkor will draw his shadow over it, and make it seem Evil and Dark, which is what I think Andreth is showing. If Andreth is right, this is something entirely contrary to this.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I realize it is said in several places, but Finrod's words in the Athrabeth show that he seemed pretty open to other ideas. I think he was wise enough to realize that Andreth was maybe right and the lore of the Elves was maybe right, but that in the long run it doesn't really matter if even they both ended up wrong. Finrod having Estel means he knows it's all going to work out for the good, that in the universe created by Eru it could work out no other way but good.

"Whither you go may you find light. Await us there, my brother - and me."

He has beliefs, but even more importantly he has Estel.

I may be totally making this up and projecting too much of myself into the text. This is with just one reading, mind you, but I promise it won't be the last.

[Curufin]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

I realize it is said in several places, but Finrod's words in the Athrabeth show that he seemed pretty open to other ideas. I think he was wise enough to realize that Andreth was maybe right and the lore of the Elves was maybe right, but that in the long run it doesn't really matter if even they both ended up wrong. Finrod having Estel means he knows it's all going to work out for the good, that in the universe created by Eru it could work out no other way but good.

Yes, I agree that's what Finrod was thinking in reference to the Eldar. But when it comes to Andreth - and even Finrod isn't that open to the idea that Melkor could change the entire fate of Men, which is what Andreth is claiming.

FINROD: Then this is a matter of dread. We know Melkor, the Morgoth, and know him to be mighty. Yea, I have seen him, and I have heard his voice; and I have stood blind in the night that is at the heart of his shadow...But never even in the night have we believed that he could prevail against the Children of Eru. This one he might cozen, or that one he might corrupt; but to change the doom of a whole people of the Children, to rob them of their inheritance: if he could do that in Eru's despite, then greater and more terrible is he by far than we guessed; then all the valour of the Noldor is but presumption and folly - nay, Valinor and the Mountains of the Pelóri are builded on sand...Nay, Andreth, the mind darkened and distraught; to bow and yet to loathe; to flee and yet not to reject; to love the body and yet scorn it, the carrion disgust: these things may come from the Morgoth, indeed. But to doom the deathless to death, from father unto son, and yet to leave to them the memory of an inheritance taken away, and the desire for what is lost: could the Morgoth do this? No, I say. And for that reason I said that if your tale is true, then all in Arda is vain, from the pinnacle of Oiolossë to the uttermost abyss. For I do not believe your tale. None could have done this save the One.

Andreth, of course, won't explain past that point, so we're kind of left hanging. The Tale of Adanel (of which Tolkien leaves us in the dark on whether it is true or not) describes things from the perspective of Men, but we can't count on its truth, either.

So I suppose it's my speculation that Andreth (and Men) have been misled by Morgoth into believing Death is something evil, but to me that is the most satisfying conclusion; that death was a gift from Eru that has been Marred.

"Whither you go may you find light. Await us there, my brother - and me."

He has beliefs, but even more importantly he has Estel.

Yes. I think that's the part that makes me so misty every time I read it - Finrod has foreknowledge that he and those dear to him will not survive this war, but his estel keeps him going, and keeps him hopeful:

'Whither you go?' she said.
'North away,' he said: 'to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes.'

That part touches me deeply - the idea that he's willing to fight for good, despite knowing that he's likely going to die. But he knows - he has Estel, anyway, that things will work out for good in the end. It's incredibly touching. And heart-breaking.

I may be totally making this up and projecting too much of myself into the text. This is with just one reading, mind you, but I promise it won't be the last.

It's hard not to do that with this text. It's an incredibly personal and emotional text. As I said, I cry every time I read it.

[Varnafindë]

I'm glad I found this thread so soon after joining. It's my single favorite text among Tolkien's writings.

Originally Posted by Curufin

More seriously, a good friend of mine interprets that as Tolkien's version of the Easter story - of God, in the form of Christ - coming to Earth to save his people.

Seeing it as his version of the Easter story - and of the Christmas story - is one of the aspects that make me love it so much.

But I doubt that I would have loved it quite as much if he had only put those thoughts into an essay - the whole setting with the interaction between Finrod and Andreth is what makes it so beautiful.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Welcome, Varnafindë. Glad you're here.

[Curufin]

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

I'm glad I found this thread so soon after joining. It's my single favorite text among Tolkien's writings.



Seeing it as his version of the Easter story - and of the Christmas story - is one of the aspects that make me love it so much.

But I doubt that I would have loved it quite as much if he had only put those thoughts into an essay - the whole setting with the interaction between Finrod and Andreth is what makes it so beautiful.

Yep. And my 'friend' is you.

Glad to see you're going to be playing Andreth in my first age RP.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Curufin

Yep. And my 'friend' is you.

Glad to see you're going to be playing Andreth in my first age RP.

I thought that that 'friend' could possibly be me

I hope we can make it a good RP.

[Curufin]

We need more than just you and me, but we could start it with just us.

[Jon S.]

I don't necessarily mind my gift per se, Illuvatar, but if it's OK by you, I won't mind it if you take a bit longer to deliver it.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I can't do two - just don't have the time - but I could drop the one we haven't started back in the White City and participate in this one.

[Curufin]

That one is going to be starting, but it's up to you.

[Varnafindë]

I guess that they might both be slow enough for you to do both - especially this one - but I can see why you would choose only one for starters.

[Earniel]

I see we have two threads on the Athrabeth active at the same time. I've merged the thread 'complete discussion of the Athrabeth' into the 'Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth' thread.