Return of thy Balrog - Page 2

Wayfarer · 02-19-2002, 05:58 PM

Well...

You see, it wasn't that Melkor was not following the Theme perfectly. In fact, all it was was a theme, and the ainur were allowed to add thier own thoughts to it. That's how Illuvatar meant them to be. But Melkor abandoned it completely, and went off in a whole new direction. That's where he became evil.

You see, Melkor didn't just want to create new things. You can see that by comparing him to Aule.. Melkor wanted to dominate. He pursued Power rather than Art.

This was his failure.

***Ben*** · 02-19-2002, 06:25 PM

Inoldonil claims he has login problems, and wanted me to post this for him:

Quote:

Somewhere in the Sim they are described as having firey heads or something like that, and in FOTR the balrog is described as "dripping with fire" and the balrog that plays in the movie in my head has a tail.

I realized the tails were your imagination. I was just being witty. There's no quotes about fiery heads or 'dripping with fire' that I know of. All I know about the Balrog of Mória's body under the shadow and fire was that it was a dark and 'of man-shape maybe, yet greater'.
Ranadwelt:

Quote:

And Melkor, okay, admittedly he got all greedy and nasty and whatnot, but--and I don't remember this part in the Sil very well--was it just that he was trying to bring in some melodies of his own? Sure, he could've ASKED...or, you know, improvised in a better setting...or something...but if he was..oh, YARGH. Here I am getting into an argument with myself. Sorry. I'm just trying to make a point...

Ranadwelt: I used to wonder just how good Eru could be when all the Ainur and Valar sprung from His thought and represented different parts of His mind (and I say 'His' because I'm talking about Tolkien's Eru Ilúvatar of the Ainulindalë). I mean, Melkor came from that mind, didn't he? But the idea is that Melkor's evil began when he was searching throughout the Void for the Flame Imperishable, which was with Eru.
Ranadwelt: That's what Eru used to create things. During that time alone Melkor developed thoughts that didn't come from Eru (he was an independent being after all).
Ranadwelt: When you are alone, away, not joining in with the others, you will naturally get thoughts that are not in accord with the others. These thoughts unfortunately were not in accord with God. There weren't just different thoughts, they were discordant thoughts. So he came back and set his Discord against the Music.

markedel · 02-19-2002, 06:55 PM

Actually Melkor's orginal themes were good, the problem is that he thought they were from him alone (and not inspired by Eru) and therefore he wanted to be master. Just as Sauror orignally wanted to make dark forlorn middle easth nicer back in the second age but he became power hungry as many reformers do.

That's why Galadriel says that she'd start by setting things right-but it wouldn't end there...

Tanoliel · 02-19-2002, 10:56 PM

Ah...comprehension dawns. Thankee very much...I said I didn't remember that part of Sil very well...

-tano

***Earniel*** · 02-24-2002, 02:14 PM

Quote:

I used to wonder just how good Eru could be when all the Ainur and Valar sprung from His thought and represented different parts of His mind (and I say 'His' because I'm talking about Tolkien's Eru Ilúvatar of the Ainulindalë). I mean, Melkor came from that mind, didn't he? But the idea is that Melkor's evil began when he was searching throughout the Void for the Flame Imperishable, which was with Eru.

Good or evil is in my opinion not something you are from the start but a choice. The Ainur sprang indeed from Iluvatar's mind, but since Melkor didn't start out as 'an evil or bad thought' you can't really say that Iluvatar is evil. (Allright nobody really said that, but you get my point)

Ñólendil · 02-24-2002, 04:43 PM

Er, ... I was explaining why the existance of Melkor does not mean that Eru is evil, so I think your point is moot (no pun intended). No offense.

Wayfarer · 02-24-2002, 04:48 PM

What? You're not a manichean anymore?

***Earniel*** · 02-24-2002, 06:03 PM

Well, well, silly me....

Ñólendil · 02-24-2002, 09:26 PM

When was I a manichean? I had to look that one up in the dictionary but I'm none the wiser.

TinuvielChild · 02-27-2002, 09:33 PM

ok, i'm a newbie, and somewhere, i heard that balrogs are related to wizards? i just started reading the silmarillion two days ago, so.... someone help me please!

Ñólendil · 02-27-2002, 10:02 PM

They are, in a sense. They are members of the same high order (though the Balrogs had obviously Fallen).

The order is that of the Ainur, the Holy Ones, some of whom entered into the Universe after it was created. Of these last, there were the mighty among them, the Valar ("the Powers, the Authorities") and the Maiar their servants ("the Beautiful"). The Wizards are of the Maiar. So are the Balrogs, only they had been corrupted, being drawn to the diabolic Melkor (also called Morgoth), originally the greatest Ainu created by Eru, the One. The Balrogs are thus Maiar, or actually Raukar ("powerful, terrible, hostile creatures"=Demons) in the service of Melkor. The Wizards were Maiar in the service of the unfallen Valar. (Radagast the Brown served Yavanna Queen of the Earth, Gandalf served Manwe the Elder King and Varda the Exalted, Saruman served Aule the Smith).

TinuvielChild · 02-27-2002, 11:55 PM

thank you very much!

Ñólendil · 02-27-2002, 11:59 PM

Thank you. I have so much in my head and I need to let it out.

Andúril · 02-28-2002, 09:32 AM

I might be mistaken but :

If all the ainur that Iluvatar created were produced (and synonomous) with his mind, everything that was done by these spirits was only a means to an end; whatever evil deeds Melkor did, they were necessary for Iluvatar's plan, same for all other actions by these spirits.

Yes Melkor was (soon after being created) evil, but his "evilness" was necessary to balance out the overall "morallity" of Iluvatar's will, which is not to say that it's good or bad, but just is. Our interepretation of this morallity is purely subjective.

What I struggle with is this: If my first paragraph is true, what are the implications with Iluvatar's involvement in the destruction of Numenor? When the valar laid down their guardianship of Arda, they called upon Iluvatar to do the necessary. Hey? If the valar (and ofcourse all the other ainur) were his "will" in essence, how do we reconcile Iluvatar's "outside" (of the valars) interaction, and the valars independant actions?

Maybe I could have explained myself better, but I am in a bit of a hurry...

***Earniel*** · 02-28-2002, 01:35 PM

Maybe he had a bad day while thinking up Melkor...

02-19-2002, 05:58 PM	#21
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Well... You see, it wasn't that Melkor was not following the Theme perfectly. In fact, all it was was a theme, and the ainur were allowed to add thier own thoughts to it. That's how Illuvatar meant them to be. But Melkor abandoned it completely, and went off in a whole new direction. That's where he became evil. You see, Melkor didn't just want to create new things. You can see that by comparing him to Aule.. Melkor wanted to dominate. He pursued Power rather than Art. This was his failure. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

02-19-2002, 06:55 PM	#23
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	Actually Melkor's orginal themes were good, the problem is that he thought they were from him alone (and not inspired by Eru) and therefore he wanted to be master. Just as Sauror orignally wanted to make dark forlorn middle easth nicer back in the second age but he became power hungry as many reformers do. That's why Galadriel says that she'd start by setting things right-but it wouldn't end there... __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

02-19-2002, 10:56 PM	#24
Tanoliel Eccentric Chocolate Crow Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: The Emerald City--Seattle, WA Posts: 1,861	Ah...comprehension dawns. Thankee very much...I said I didn't remember that part of Sil very well... -tano __________________ Wisdom for Short Attention Spans...Ozy and Millie. It rocks. Food Of The Gods: 3,7-dihydro-3,7-dimethyl-1H-purine-2,6-dione Feed Me.... Another Online Dwelling Place... "All right, I confess. It is my intention to comandeer a ship, pick up a crew in Tortuga, to rape, pillage, plunder and otherwise pilfer my weasely black guts out." -Captain Jack Sparrow "The trouble with unknown enemies is that they are so difficult to identify." -Amelia Peabody Emerson "Most people obey the orders of someone who is pointing a gun at their head." -A.P. Emerson

02-24-2002, 04:43 PM	#26
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Er, ... I was explaining why the existance of Melkor does not mean that Eru is evil, so I think your point is moot (no pun intended). No offense. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

02-24-2002, 04:48 PM	#27
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	What? You're not a manichean anymore? __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

02-24-2002, 06:03 PM	#28
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	Well, well, silly me....

02-24-2002, 09:26 PM	#29
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	When was I a manichean? I had to look that one up in the dictionary but I'm none the wiser. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

02-27-2002, 09:33 PM	#30
TinuvielChild Padawan Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: The Barony of Carolingia Posts: 2,176	ok, i'm a newbie, and somewhere, i heard that balrogs are related to wizards? i just started reading the silmarillion two days ago, so.... someone help me please! __________________ There are only four questions of value in life: What is sacred? Of what is the spirit made? What is worth living for? What is worth dying for? The answer to each is the same: ONLY LOVE. Dance as though nobody's watching. Sing as though nobody's listening. Dream as though you'll live forever. Live as though you'll die tomorrow. EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMEDDCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO and proud! FRODO LIVES!!!!!

02-27-2002, 10:02 PM	#31
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	They are, in a sense. They are members of the same high order (though the Balrogs had obviously Fallen). The order is that of the Ainur, the Holy Ones, some of whom entered into the Universe after it was created. Of these last, there were the mighty among them, the Valar ("the Powers, the Authorities") and the Maiar their servants ("the Beautiful"). The Wizards are of the Maiar. So are the Balrogs, only they had been corrupted, being drawn to the diabolic Melkor (also called Morgoth), originally the greatest Ainu created by Eru, the One. The Balrogs are thus Maiar, or actually Raukar ("powerful, terrible, hostile creatures"=Demons) in the service of Melkor. The Wizards were Maiar in the service of the unfallen Valar. (Radagast the Brown served Yavanna Queen of the Earth, Gandalf served Manwe the Elder King and Varda the Exalted, Saruman served Aule the Smith). __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

02-27-2002, 11:55 PM	#32
TinuvielChild Padawan Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: The Barony of Carolingia Posts: 2,176	thank you very much! __________________ There are only four questions of value in life: What is sacred? Of what is the spirit made? What is worth living for? What is worth dying for? The answer to each is the same: ONLY LOVE. Dance as though nobody's watching. Sing as though nobody's listening. Dream as though you'll live forever. Live as though you'll die tomorrow. EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMEDDCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO and proud! FRODO LIVES!!!!!

02-27-2002, 11:59 PM	#33
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Thank you. I have so much in my head and I need to let it out. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

02-28-2002, 09:32 AM	#34
Andúril The Original Corruptor Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,881	I might be mistaken but : If all the ainur that Iluvatar created were produced (and synonomous) with his mind, everything that was done by these spirits was only a means to an end; whatever evil deeds Melkor did, they were necessary for Iluvatar's plan, same for all other actions by these spirits. Yes Melkor was (soon after being created) evil, but his "evilness" was necessary to balance out the overall "morallity" of Iluvatar's will, which is not to say that it's good or bad, but just is. Our interepretation of this morallity is purely subjective. What I struggle with is this: If my first paragraph is true, what are the implications with Iluvatar's involvement in the destruction of Numenor? When the valar laid down their guardianship of Arda, they called upon Iluvatar to do the necessary. Hey? If the valar (and ofcourse all the other ainur) were his "will" in essence, how do we reconcile Iluvatar's "outside" (of the valars) interaction, and the valars independant actions? Maybe I could have explained myself better, but I am in a bit of a hurry...

02-28-2002, 01:35 PM	#35
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	Maybe he had a bad day while thinking up Melkor...

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