Lawyers

Elanor · 10-12-2005, 06:37 PM

Are there lawyers in Middle Earth? What do you think? If so, where do they live, what do they do, and should we drive them out?

On a similar topic, how are government things run, besides the kings and stewards? Do they have health care and welfare programs? Who manages education? What about endowments for the arts?

Am I going to be shot for even considering the idea of lawyers in Middle Earth?

Elanor · 10-12-2005, 07:48 PM

Maybe the lawyers are all in Southern Gondor.

Curubethion · 10-12-2005, 08:09 PM

There's no such thing as an LOTR lawyer. If you want to sue someone, just take your sword and chop their head off.

Telcontar_Dunedain · 10-13-2005, 02:31 PM

I don't think there are lawyers in ME, but I won't shoot you for it.
Education wise I think that there was none in the Shire, as it says somewhere (either in LotR or TH) that most hobbit children didn't know how to read or write. I'm also guessing from Aragorn's little talk about the Rohirrim that they didn't have an schooling.
As for Government. The Shire has a Mayor and a Thain. In Gondor they have a Council which I think acts like the Cabinet does in Britain. It was them who refused Arvedui and appointed Earnil II as King.

rohirrim TR · 10-13-2005, 02:43 PM

no elanor we won't shoot you (at least i won't,) we'll use lightsabers

i think if any race had lawyers it would have been hobbits with their little small claims courts and housing difficulties that bilbo had

Elanor · 10-13-2005, 04:00 PM

Actually, I was thinking about this and I realized they do have heralds and esquires that fulfill lawyerly tasks sometimes-- representing someone else, executing their wishes. Like the Mouth of Sauron, Wormtongue, etc. Even Elrond in his younger days. They just don't call themselves lawyers.

In fact, you could possibly consider the Istari to be lawyers, since they were sent out to represent the Valar and handle their concerns. Also some of the Valar seem to have special Maiar as assistants who handle their technical stuff. So no one is free of lawyers! Ha ha ha!

inked · 10-13-2005, 04:01 PM

There ARE lawyers in Middle Earth, sillies! They are all in Mordor! That's why those poor hobbits had to do their own wills and things. And that part about the Bag End place, well, it was just to show that all hobbits can get along without lawyers! (They are not niccccce are they, preciousssssss. No. No. No. Tough and stringly and off-color and nassssssty issssss tthemsssssssss.)

Curubethion · 10-14-2005, 12:23 AM

Gandalf the lawyer...that gives me an interesting mental picture...zapping the opposing side with his staff...

Jon S. · 10-15-2005, 08:38 AM

Historically, many legal and judicial systems were designed as alternatives to monarchal fiat as well as individuals settling disputes through violence (whether personally or vicariously through seconds) or trial by ordeal. They were also designed to provide certainty and predictability in commercial and interpersonal relationships. And, of course, they can be "set up" to protect established interests.

A common lawyer quote is the one by Shakespeare to the effect that, "First thing we must do is kill all the lawyers." It's almost always referenced negatively (as in, "don't those lawyers suck!") but as I understand it, the actual context is more along the lines of, "to succeed in overthrowing the government the first thing we must do is kill all the lawyers as it's the law and its defenders/practitioners that stand between us and our violence-based strategy and continued civility." (These "quotes" are all paraphasing, BTW.)

To my knowledge, none of the governments in ME are true democracies (one person, one vote). I'm not sure how many can even be considered republics (based on the rule of law). Plus the use of violence to settle disputes appears common. So I'd guess there are probably some lawyers there but few.

I'm a lawyer m'self though it's been a while since I've seen the inside of a courtroom. These days my work is in the environmental policy arena. (I hope having admitted this doesn't now blow my cover entirely here.

)

P.S. I went back and looked this up from ROTK, ch. The Steward and the King: "In the days that followed his crowning the King sat on his throne in the Hall of Kings and pronounced his judgements." This suggests no separation of powers in Gondor, at with with respect to the executive and judicial functions. I also note that when Beregond appeared before Aragorn for judgement, he appeared alone. Suggestion: at a minimum, no constitutional right of representation in Godor as in America (though perhaps Beregond waived it

).

Curubethion · 10-15-2005, 02:41 PM

So, it seems maybe the people were their own lawyers. They would bring their case before the king, and plead it themselves.

Wayfarer · 10-16-2005, 04:44 PM

I nominate Saruman as the best candidate.

Elanor · 10-17-2005, 05:45 PM

Thanks for the informative post, Jon! I was just kidding about driving out the lawyers.

I didn't think about Beregond's situation. It seems that in Middle Earth, criminals they are mostly tried and judged by the king, and they don't seem to even have trials in many cases. In fact most of the punishments we see are unfair-- banishing Eomer from Rohan, Denethor's treatment of Faramir, etc. Orcs, trolls, etc. are the real criminals, and they are simply killed on sight. I do notice that hired thieves are looked on favorably, namely Bilbo the Burglar.

We don't see many crimes in the Shire until Sharkey shows up with is list of Rules, ruffians, and Shirrifs. So I think you're right, Wayfarer. Saruman sort of represents the modern government with all of its technology, annoying rules and bureaucracy. Tolkien hated that, and wished that life could remain quiet and pastoral, but of course it can't. We don't live in a fantasy world, so we need lawyers and rules. There is a lot of crime in the worlds and kings can't judge everything (even if they were fair all the time), especially in situations that have two sides, unlike Beregond.

Now that I think of it, there were some sticky legal situations in the early days, like the imprisonment of Melkor (and then they just let him wander around), Feanor's kinslaying, etc. I can't remember if they had any advocates or lawyer types. Perhaps the reason there is so little crime is that oaths were considered very binding. Look what happened to the Men of the Mountain!

10-12-2005, 06:37 PM	#1
Elanor Hobbit in the Music Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: Westmarch Posts: 1,111	Lawyers Are there lawyers in Middle Earth? What do you think? If so, where do they live, what do they do, and should we drive them out? On a similar topic, how are government things run, besides the kings and stewards? Do they have health care and welfare programs? Who manages education? What about endowments for the arts? Am I going to be shot for even considering the idea of lawyers in Middle Earth? __________________ Middle Earth Crossword Puzzle on the Tolkien Site of DOOM Segovia Mazes

10-12-2005, 07:48 PM	#2
Elanor Hobbit in the Music Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: Westmarch Posts: 1,111	Maybe the lawyers are all in Southern Gondor. __________________ Middle Earth Crossword Puzzle on the Tolkien Site of DOOM Segovia Mazes

10-12-2005, 08:09 PM	#3
Curubethion Fenway Ranger, Lord of Red Sox Nation Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: College! Posts: 1,976	There's no such thing as an LOTR lawyer. If you want to sue someone, just take your sword and chop their head off. __________________ Adventure...betrayal...heroism... Atharon: where heroes are born. My wife once said to me—when I'd been writing for ten or fifteen years—that I could always go back to being a nuclear engineer. And I said to her, 'Harriet, would you let someone who quit his job to go write fantasy anywhere near your nuclear reactor? I wouldn't!' (Robert Jordan)

10-13-2005, 02:31 PM	#4
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	I don't think there are lawyers in ME, but I won't shoot you for it. Education wise I think that there was none in the Shire, as it says somewhere (either in LotR or TH) that most hobbit children didn't know how to read or write. I'm also guessing from Aragorn's little talk about the Rohirrim that they didn't have an schooling. As for Government. The Shire has a Mayor and a Thain. In Gondor they have a Council which I think acts like the Cabinet does in Britain. It was them who refused Arvedui and appointed Earnil II as King. __________________ Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230

10-13-2005, 04:00 PM	#6
Elanor Hobbit in the Music Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: Westmarch Posts: 1,111	Actually, I was thinking about this and I realized they do have heralds and esquires that fulfill lawyerly tasks sometimes-- representing someone else, executing their wishes. Like the Mouth of Sauron, Wormtongue, etc. Even Elrond in his younger days. They just don't call themselves lawyers. In fact, you could possibly consider the Istari to be lawyers, since they were sent out to represent the Valar and handle their concerns. Also some of the Valar seem to have special Maiar as assistants who handle their technical stuff. So no one is free of lawyers! Ha ha ha! __________________ Middle Earth Crossword Puzzle on the Tolkien Site of DOOM Segovia Mazes

10-13-2005, 04:01 PM	#7
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	There ARE lawyers in Middle Earth, sillies! They are all in Mordor! That's why those poor hobbits had to do their own wills and things. And that part about the Bag End place, well, it was just to show that all hobbits can get along without lawyers! (They are not niccccce are they, preciousssssss. No. No. No. Tough and stringly and off-color and nassssssty issssss tthemsssssssss.) __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941

10-14-2005, 12:23 AM	#8
Curubethion Fenway Ranger, Lord of Red Sox Nation Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: College! Posts: 1,976	Gandalf the lawyer...that gives me an interesting mental picture...zapping the opposing side with his staff... __________________ Adventure...betrayal...heroism... Atharon: where heroes are born. My wife once said to me—when I'd been writing for ten or fifteen years—that I could always go back to being a nuclear engineer. And I said to her, 'Harriet, would you let someone who quit his job to go write fantasy anywhere near your nuclear reactor? I wouldn't!' (Robert Jordan)

10-15-2005, 08:38 AM	#9
Jon S. Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 455	Historically, many legal and judicial systems were designed as alternatives to monarchal fiat as well as individuals settling disputes through violence (whether personally or vicariously through seconds) or trial by ordeal. They were also designed to provide certainty and predictability in commercial and interpersonal relationships. And, of course, they can be "set up" to protect established interests. A common lawyer quote is the one by Shakespeare to the effect that, "First thing we must do is kill all the lawyers." It's almost always referenced negatively (as in, "don't those lawyers suck!") but as I understand it, the actual context is more along the lines of, "to succeed in overthrowing the government the first thing we must do is kill all the lawyers as it's the law and its defenders/practitioners that stand between us and our violence-based strategy and continued civility." (These "quotes" are all paraphasing, BTW.) To my knowledge, none of the governments in ME are true democracies (one person, one vote). I'm not sure how many can even be considered republics (based on the rule of law). Plus the use of violence to settle disputes appears common. So I'd guess there are probably some lawyers there but few. I'm a lawyer m'self though it's been a while since I've seen the inside of a courtroom. These days my work is in the environmental policy arena. (I hope having admitted this doesn't now blow my cover entirely here. ) P.S. I went back and looked this up from ROTK, ch. The Steward and the King: "In the days that followed his crowning the King sat on his throne in the Hall of Kings and pronounced his judgements." This suggests no separation of powers in Gondor, at with with respect to the executive and judicial functions. I also note that when Beregond appeared before Aragorn for judgement, he appeared alone. Suggestion: at a minimum, no constitutional right of representation in Godor as in America (though perhaps Beregond waived it ). Last edited by Jon S. : 10-15-2005 at 08:48 AM.

10-15-2005, 02:41 PM	#10
Curubethion Fenway Ranger, Lord of Red Sox Nation Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: College! Posts: 1,976	So, it seems maybe the people were their own lawyers. They would bring their case before the king, and plead it themselves. __________________ Adventure...betrayal...heroism... Atharon: where heroes are born. My wife once said to me—when I'd been writing for ten or fifteen years—that I could always go back to being a nuclear engineer. And I said to her, 'Harriet, would you let someone who quit his job to go write fantasy anywhere near your nuclear reactor? I wouldn't!' (Robert Jordan)

10-16-2005, 04:44 PM	#11
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	I nominate Saruman as the best candidate. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

10-17-2005, 05:45 PM	#12
Elanor Hobbit in the Music Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: Westmarch Posts: 1,111	Thanks for the informative post, Jon! I was just kidding about driving out the lawyers. I didn't think about Beregond's situation. It seems that in Middle Earth, criminals they are mostly tried and judged by the king, and they don't seem to even have trials in many cases. In fact most of the punishments we see are unfair-- banishing Eomer from Rohan, Denethor's treatment of Faramir, etc. Orcs, trolls, etc. are the real criminals, and they are simply killed on sight. I do notice that hired thieves are looked on favorably, namely Bilbo the Burglar. We don't see many crimes in the Shire until Sharkey shows up with is list of Rules, ruffians, and Shirrifs. So I think you're right, Wayfarer. Saruman sort of represents the modern government with all of its technology, annoying rules and bureaucracy. Tolkien hated that, and wished that life could remain quiet and pastoral, but of course it can't. We don't live in a fantasy world, so we need lawyers and rules. There is a lot of crime in the worlds and kings can't judge everything (even if they were fair all the time), especially in situations that have two sides, unlike Beregond. Now that I think of it, there were some sticky legal situations in the early days, like the imprisonment of Melkor (and then they just let him wander around), Feanor's kinslaying, etc. I can't remember if they had any advocates or lawyer types. Perhaps the reason there is so little crime is that oaths were considered very binding. Look what happened to the Men of the Mountain! __________________ Middle Earth Crossword Puzzle on the Tolkien Site of DOOM Segovia Mazes

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