The 21st Century Athiest

[Spock]

..now you're getting it.....have fun

[Rían]

Originally Posted by HOBBIT

I even know a bunch of atheist/agnostic christians.

This seems to me to cross over into the realm of politically-correct silliness, unless they're just using the term "Christian" to mean they were raised in a home where the parents made some acknowledgement of the Christian faith, like perhaps going to church at Christmas sometimes. "Jew" I can understand, since there are definitions of that besides those involving faith (such as political and ethnic), but traditionally, "Christian" hasn't had those definitions. One could be born to Christian parents and then choose another belief system, such as atheism, and they would NOT then be an atheistic Christian, IMO. They would just be an atheist. A Christian is traditionally defined as one who holds to the basic beliefs of the Christian faith; a big one being, of course, that God exists.

[Insidious Rex]

Maybe they are just Unitarians.

[HOBBIT]

"Jew" I can understand, since there are definitions of that besides those involving faith (such as political and ethnic),

yup

unless they're just using the term "Christian" to mean they were raised in a home where the parents made some acknowledgement of the Christian faith, like perhaps going to church at Christmas sometimes.

not exactly. some were raised in very religious christian homes, some not as much.

Even if they think the religion (and religion is general) is silly and they really don't believe all of it, they would still consider themselves christian because they were raised christian - their whole family is christian.

They celebrate Christmas, Easter, etc. And they were confirmed and baptised and whatever. Etc, etc. So if you stop believing that makes you not christian?


*shrug* I go to temple like twice a year if I can help it. :P But I'm still Jewish (although there is a racial thing there, as you mentioned, that is not there with christians..)

[sun-star]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

However, I think he's confused atheism with positivism in his slagging off the likes of Dawkins. Positivists pick fights with religion because they have a territorial dispute over where objective truth comes from.

I think you're right - he seems to have some of his history confused. It doesn't make sense to talk about 'old atheism' as any kind of uniform belief system, particularly if you try to characterise 19th century atheism as "virulently anti-religious, passionately pro-science and artistically illiterate". Atheism in the 19th century is a wide spectrum ranging from Nietzsche to Marx to German Biblical analysis to the heirs of Romanticism to reluctant scientist-sceptics like Darwin. Evans seems pretty much in line with that one kind of 'old atheism' which thought nature and art could replace religion as transcendent experiences.

Finally, to become a senior lecturer with such a dodgy publications list shows good skills in rhetorical arts.

At the University of the West of England... If anyone feels like a laugh, read the section of his website entitled "Why I like baroque music - an imaginary interview". A perfect example of how having their own website makes people go a little crazy

If you want to establish an atheism based on the value of art and myth, surely it would be an advantage to write as if you understood the beauty of language. This article is woefully written - "the artist removed one of the bricks in the wall, allowing the illusory nature of the painting to become clear" is particularly dire, as is "By revealing the fictitious nature of this landscape," they said, "you have allowed us to appreciate the beauty of your art". If he showed any sign of actually appreciating beauty in language, one might be more inclined to accept his assessment of beauty in religion.

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by sun-star

At the University of the West of England...

Now then, now then. Bristol Poly is a fine institution...

When you talk about the German biblical fellas, are you talking about the rise of historicism in 18th/19th century Germany? I ask because a mate has just written a book on it, is convinced (rightly in my view) that no-one is interested, and I wanted to freak him out with some obscure facts to drop into conversation sometime.

Originally Posted by sun-star

If anyone feels like a laugh, read the section of his website entitled "Why I like baroque music - an imaginary interview". A perfect example of how having their own website makes people go a little crazy

If you want to establish an atheism based on the value of art and myth, surely it would be an advantage to write as if you understood the beauty of language. This article is woefully written - "the artist removed one of the bricks in the wall, allowing the illusory nature of the painting to become clear" is particularly dire, as is "By revealing the fictitious nature of this landscape," they said, "you have allowed us to appreciate the beauty of your art". If he showed any sign of actually appreciating beauty in language, one might be more inclined to accept his assessment of beauty in religion.

Ooh, way to disembowel. It is worrying how easy it seems to be to get this kind of thing published.

[sun-star]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

When you talk about the German biblical fellas, are you talking about the rise of historicism in 18th/19th century Germany? I ask because a mate has just written a book on it, is convinced (rightly in my view) that no-one is interested, and I wanted to freak him out with some obscure facts to drop into conversation sometime.

A book? Wow... I'll try not to say anything stupid now My knowledge of the German historicism thing comes from the effect it had on George Eliot (among others) who found that reading such critics undermined her faith in the Bible as a historical document. That led her to question other aspects of the established church, as well as the divinity of Jesus, and she ended up as a kind of agnostic humanist. I think her experience, including the great pain she felt at losing the faith she was brought up in and the rifts this caused with her family, was more typical of 19th-century doubt than radical atheism.

[The Gaffer]

Sounds eminently sensible.

Recently we were talking in the pub about dogmatism and religion (as you do, especially if you're a couple of sad cases) and he spoke about the rise of historicism as a German phenomenon. The broader theme is Anglo-German influences in the 19th Century. A very interesting issue as you've got industrial revolution, science as instrument of progress, massive social and political upheaval, etc etc.

My poor old mucker has flogged away at this for 18 months, it's really relevant to modern issues (rise of Islamic and Christian fundamentalism, colonialism, technological revolution, etc) but he's convinced that no-one will read it.

I would plug it, but I don't know the title and the publisher knocked back his first draft with a load of amendments.

[sun-star]

That sounds interesting - I'd read it, and I'm sure other people will if it gets published

[Tessar]

I would never read it.

But you should publish it anyways .

[The Gaffer]

Excellent, sunstar, I'll tell him that. (It's not me that's publishing a book, by the way, T; though I might suggest your quote for the dust jacket)

[inked]

Well, here's an update on the great Communist state of China and all the tolerance that atheism allows in the Maoist reality:

http://www.crisismagazine.com/february2002/cover.htm

Thoughts?

[Rían]

Interesting article, inky - thanks!

[Lotesse]

*bump*

The 21st century atheist

"Not believing in God is no excuse for being virulently anti-religious or naively pro-science"

Indeed.

[Linaewen]

True. Like with most things, being too extreme or bigoted is undesirable.

I'm just thinking about the 'virulently anti-religious' part. Why would someone be so opposed to religion? Because it: is 'false', 'sucks' people in, promotes narrowmindedness, contradictory? I'm an atheist but I think it's good for people to have faith in something, even though I don't chose to myself. (Actually, I didn't really chose not to have faith, I inherently don't have it)