Origins, and Implications of Origins

[Butterbeer]

damn! the council of butterflies was just about to respond ...

still, least the topic is friendlier, heh?

hope you are feeling better by the way!

[Snowdog]

... and who gives a rip about this today??? I'm so far beyond this man....

... I have to get embroiled in one of these somewhere every year to remind me why I don't get into these threads ...

[Spock]

Please stay on topic folks. This thread needs to stay focused.

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"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."
Marcus Aurelius

[rohirrim TR]

maybe we should change the title/purpose of this thread? just wondering

[Spock]

Originally Posted by rohirrim TR

maybe we should change the title/purpose of this thread? just wondering

Talk to Rian, she started this thread.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

But don't kids hear from their parents, "it's not RIGHT to do that, little Samwise!" IOW, don't parents (and others) provide subjective analyses of how to handle experiences?

I may be wrong but I think that there is more of that now than there used to be. I went on a number of Christian Camps this summer and the majority of the Senior Leaders weren't bought up in a Christian environment, but became Christians through friends at school or later on in life.

[Rían]

Not quite sure what you mean, TD, could you please explain? You think there's more of parents telling kids what's right?

SO - brownie's opinion is that "life experience (including our parents, who typically use real life examples to teach their children) is where we get our morals... the "origin stuff" doesn't really hit home 'till at least the teen years".

I would strongly disagree with this (surprised, brownie? ) and I would like to hear you share an example of how this has worked out in RL with one of your kids. IOW, can you give us an example of an experience that happened to one of your kids, and what moral it taught him, and what role (if any) you and/or your wife had?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think that religious parents more 'enforce' there own religion on their children (I may be wrong). On some Christian Camps I went to during the summer, quite a lot of the Senior Leaders were not bought up in Christian families, but came to find God through friends or in other ways. As I said before I may be wrong and this may just be a coincidence.

[Spock]

*****THESE LAST TWO POSTS COULD ALSO FIT INTO THE THREAD
Parents' Thread
PLEASE CONSIDER IT.

[Rían]

Yes, they could fit on the parents' thread, but my post deals with the topic of THIS thread - we've been discussing how a person's thoughts on what their origins are affect choices we make (my contention and the thread topic), or if they do NOT affect choices they make (brownie's contention, arguing against the thread topic). I'm asking brownie now for specific examples to illustrate his point. This is NOT about parenting per se; we're now looking at when children first start to consider ideas of origin, because that will certainly affect which one of our points will be more supported.

I'll check out the parenting thread again, tho, and see where Arien, the thread starter, wants to take that thread

[Spock]

OK, OK, jeeze

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Not quite sure what you mean, TD, could you please explain? You think there's more of parents telling kids what's right?

SO - brownie's opinion is that "life experience (including our parents, who typically use real life examples to teach their children) is where we get our morals... the "origin stuff" doesn't really hit home 'till at least the teen years".

I would strongly disagree with this (surprised, brownie? )

how come?

it's hard to know where to start with the kids, but i can tell you that no situation in the 3, 7 and 11 years of my three boys has ever involved any explanation concerning god, religion or origins... when something happens, like a fight over a toy or something, i talk to my children about the importance of patience, sharing... and about the fact that we live together (and will for a long time) and mutual respect for one another is the best for all of us... share with your brother and he will be more likely to share with you... that sort of thing

i find real world examples where children can actually see the benefits much more effective than some kind of biblical fable... and the idea of heaven, hell, the afterlife, etc. is so far from their reality that i highly doubt it would be a motivating factor at all... from personal experience, even into the teen years, it is hard to even impress upon a child the idea that they are not near-invincible

[Spock]

[Rían]

Great cartoon, Spock!!

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

it's hard to know where to start with the kids, but i can tell you that no situation in the 3, 7 and 11 years of my three boys has ever involved any explanation concerning god, religion or origins...

Exactly!!!! - which teaches them what? That their origin is NOT from God, thus they need to determine their own morality however they want to. When they're younger, they'll weigh any desire to steal (we ALL want to, you know!) from others against possible consequences of parents finding out. When they're older, they are perfectly free to steal, IF they can get away with it and IF they desire to do it, since they have learned from infancy up that there is no God that made them. Their parents never referred to God, therefore God must not be necessary to refer to.

Now the natural moral laws that, IMO, God has put into people's hearts (called by non-religious folk by names like "common decency") will make most people not WANT to do things that are commonly considered wrong. But in cases like Dahmer, who DID (obviously) want to do those things, there is certainly no LOGICAL (in the formal sense, not the "what is the norm?" sense) reason to decide against killing and eating children *shudder* if he is willing to chance the consequences, which he apparently was. If evolution IS true in the sense that he (and I think most) people think it is, then we have NOT been created by God/gods, and we are NOT accountable to anyone (altho if enough people get together that don't like what we do, they can overpower us and put us in jail or something.) If you, brownie, can decide on what YOU think is right, why can't Jeffrey Dahmer? The only objection you could possibly have is, "but I don't LIKE what you do!" And he, of course, could have the same objection about you.

Also, perhaps his morals have evolved more than yours, right?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

i find real world examples where children can actually see the benefits much more effective than some kind of biblical fable...

I agree that kids need to see the benefits of being "good" ... and the down side of "bad" choices, too.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Now the natural moral laws that, IMO, God has put into people's hearts (called by non-religious folk by names like "common decency") will make most people not WANT to do things that are commonly considered wrong.

i'd say that "life experience" put morals into their hearts... a human child who had some sort of "tarzan" experience (raised outside society) would have absolutely no issue with "stealing" fruit from a streetside market until he learned otherwise... and, because of his background, calling him "immoral" after the first incident would be somewhat unfair... there are no "natural moral laws", only what we learn from life

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

But in cases like Dahmer, who DID (obviously) want to do those things, there is certainly no LOGICAL (in the formal sense, not the "what is the norm?" sense) reason to decide against killing and eating children *shudder* if he is willing to chance the consequences, which he apparently was.

it is hard to refer to the mind of a killer as logical... there have been killers in the past who have claimed that "god told them to do it"... perfectly logical from their point of view... in fact, we can't even be sure that they are not speaking the truth... or at least what is true in their own minds... as i mentioned elsewhere, the KKK used biblical justification for some of their actions

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

If evolution IS true in the sense that he (and I think most) people think it is, then we have NOT been created by God/gods, and we are NOT accountable to anyone (altho if enough people get together that don't like what we do, they can overpower us and put us in jail or something.)

but we are... you even said it... we are accountable to the society we live in... but just like the catholic priest who decides to disobey all he believes to be true and do evil, the non-religious person can also choose to go against societies morals and do whatever evil he chooses

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

If you, brownie, can decide on what YOU think is right, why can't Jeffrey Dahmer? The only objection you could possibly have is, "but I don't LIKE what you do!" And he, of course, could have the same objection about you.

my objection would be that one would face the consequences society deals out to those who commit certain acts... it's not what I don't like, it's what SOCIETY does not like

one could even argue that such "here and now" consequences are a lot more effective than threatening one with hell and damnation when they die