Notes towards Orcology

[Michael Martinez]

There is only one poor scholar in this thread and his name sure ain't J.R.R. Tolkien.

Kiri, your Orcology thoughts are wonderful. Ignore the childish flamer and keep posting.

[Ñólendil]

He's not a childish flamer, he just misunderstood kiri, as you misunderstood him, I guess.

[Michael Martinez]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
He's not a childish flamer, he just misunderstood kiri, as you misunderstood him, I guess.

Anyone who attacks another person without provocation is a childish flamer.

It is never necessary to try and humiliate someone else simply to point out that you disagree with what they say.

Tolerating childish flames only encourages the flamers.

[bropous]

I'm a man of my word, Inoldonil, and I will not go back on it.

kiri, if I misunderstood you, and you did not call JRR a "pretty sloppy scholar", then I owe you a huge apology for laying into you, and you have it sincerely from me right here and now. Youe exposition showed a lot of imagination, although I don't find much in it with which I agree, but it WAS a product of hard work.

[Kiri]

I described the "Fourth Age Gondor 'scholar'" as "pretty sloppy", not Tolkien.

If this statement is not sufficient, then should you wish to heap further abuse upon my head, I can be found thus:

Bryan J. Maloney
511 W. Green St.
Ithaca, NY.

We can then settle our differences face-to-face, bring your own second.

[bropous]

Brian/kiri:

Had you read the post directly previous to your last, you would have seen that I offered a sincere apology for misunderstanding your comments re: "pretty sloppy scholarship". No need for seconds, no "abuse" further served. I took it on the chin like a man to say I was wrong, and for that I was, and am, truly sorry. Can you be just as equal a man and accept that which was so sincerely offered?

And, just a tiny bit of friendly advice, in the spirit of mending fences and building bridges: You might not want to post your name and address on the Internet. It leaves one open to nasty things like identity theft, and I don't want to see that happen to ANYONE.

Again, apologies meant from the heart, and I look forward to reading your future posts.

bropous

[Kiri]

1: All primates preen--including humans, although the behavior is a great deal more restricted and less status-driven than among other primates*. In some human societies, lice-pulling is still not uncommon, although they aren't eaten.

2: If Orcs are descended of men or elves, and if elves are related to men, then Orcs are primates.

3: Wolves do not have the sort of behavior falsely and slanderously misattributed to them herein. Contact any expert on their behavior.

4: I find it amusing that so many bombastic and vehement disagreement with my speculation is itself no more than speculation**.

*My wife related a most amusing claim by an anthropology professor that "humans are alone among primates in not engaging in social grooming behavior". She told me this while she and two friends were taking turns braiding each other's hair. The professor was an unmarried man...

**Honestly, how much is actually published directly reporting Orc behavior and how much is simply now accepted? A few tidbits here and there and other material in Vol. 12 of _History_, some of which may contradict the _Silmarillion_ to some extent or another.

Why are people so offended at the idea that a character in Middle Earth might actually make ERRORS about Middle Earth?

(Of course, I'm an arch-evil slime-heretic who thinks that there very well might be some possibility that anything not published in _The Hobbit_ or _Lord of the Rings_ should always be taken as material that existed from a specific point of view--from a specific non-omniscient point of view.)

[orald]

How unnecessary to attack someone,for there speculation.Welcome Kiri,I,along with several others,who actually read what you posted,thought it was interesting.Not all Entmooters are so hasty to try and make a name for themselves by confrontation,in fact hes the only one I've seen.Theres some extremely knowledgable people here,that will enhance your Tolkien experience.

[Kiri]

Your apology, bropous, is accepted in full and without recrimination. I regret having not finished reading *both* pages of this particular thread.

The spirit of your advice is appreciated. However, some of my work and avocations already have required that my particulars be published.

[bropous]

kiri, as far as I am concerned, clean slate between us, mate, and again a hearty welcome to the Moot and I look forward to reading more of your imaginative and well-written material, disagreements with your conclusions notwithstanding. That's the beauty of the Moot, and I will remember this exchange as I respond to others with whom I may disagree. I have learned a valuable lesson here, and thanks to you for being so gracious in accepting the apology.

[Wayfarer]

Preening:

Preening, social groomin, etc, are yes, well dovumented, and yes, all known primates engage in this behavior.

However, honestly, does anyone here believe that orcs care enough to groom themselves, much less others?

It may be said, and this is semispeculation based on a rather shakey example:

In the FOTR movie, during the scene where the Uruk-Hai/Half Orcs are preparing for battle, or something, you can see several of them making handprints in white paint on eachothers faces. It is reasonable to assume that orcs would engage in 'preening' of this type.
I also, for some reason, have this picture of orcs practicing scarification. I suppose that, or the tatoos that some orcs had (also in the movie) would be the Orcish form of social groomingf.

However, since Orcs are almost certainly not furred or featered (wait... Orcs, Auks... nah!) they would have few incidences of lice, and in any case, seem to be tempermentally unsuited to the type of preeing behavior that, for example, chimpanzees engage in.

It just doesnt mesh. Any orc foolish enough to let another, however subservient, behind it to pick through it's hair, would likely end up with a slit throat.

Wolves:

Don't take me wrong. I love wolves. I find them fascinating. I was not in any way suggesting that they are to be considered on a level with Orcs.

I was, in fact, comparing the two in a relatively small area. Wolves form small packs, generally something like three to ten individuals. Most Orc packs would be something like thirty. But both share a feature in thier heierachy-the primacy of strength.

In a wolf pack, the largest, strongest male is the leader. The 'Alpha'. In an Orc gang, the largest, strongest, most cruel individual is the leader.

In a wolf pack, there is seldom infighting, unless one individual is challenging another for primacy. Even in this case, one will usually back down before fighting is needed. Thus with orcs. For example, though the slave in the Tower of Cirith Ungol challenges Shagrat, he is smart enough to realize that he'd be an easy kill. So he runs away.

However, when two Packs are vieing for territory, they will fight and kill. It's the same with orcs, only that 'territory' can be any number of things... a mithril shirt (shagrat/Gorbag), or a destination (Ugluk/Grishnakh), for example.


Please take into account, these are only dealing with social structure. If one wishes to get examples of exactly how cruel and sadistic orcs are, you must look elsewhere for your information-I look to the human race, where we have people willing to cut up thier fellow men and stuff them in pickle jars.

If you really want to know what I think orcs were like, take the worst, most sickening stories of murder, rape, and cruelty that you've ever heard of mankind. Then imagine that's the norm.

I like wolves even more in light of that comparison.



On a closing note... my first to posts were meant to be entertaining, and in the spirit of the original poster. It was getting late, so I cut off, but my intent was to have as much fun with this as I have had with the skin-colour discussion.

[Michael Martinez]

Kiri, sorry about getting your gender wrong.

As far as the movie goes, it pretty much has no relevance to Tolkien's world, in terms of documenting behavior of Orcs or other species.

The movie should be kept separate from the book.

[Kiri]

Writing as me and not my poor addlepated Fourth Age scholar, I try to get a handle on Orcs by drawing from what I have learned from being in the (Eastern) Orthodox Church. It appears to me that Orcs seem to in some sense (but not entirely, of course), inspired by the concept of some of the Deadly Passions. They may have begun as relatively healthy, if unenlightened, children of Eru, but then they were put through a distorting lens. Essentially, they were "bred". Note that when I say "bred" I do *not* mean it in the sense of "created _ex nihil et de novo_". I mean it in the sense of animal husbandry.

Morgoth took the stock he had and forced it into unnatural lines. We have been doing the same thing ourselves to plants and animals for millenia. Of course, the purpose often drives the results and the legitimacy, thereof. You like tomatoes? None of the tomatoes you buy (even the heritage/legacy lines) much resemble ancestral tomatoes.

[EdBlackadder]

Thank you very much for sharing thsi Kiri, its been great fun and certainly got me thinking

[bropous]

Absolutely correct about Morgoth perverting the original "stock" and "creating" Orcs, kiri. They began as Elves, as far as I can tell, and the Great Corrupter worked his evil deeds upon them to bring forth this vile and evil race.

As for Eastern Orthodox traditions, I have to admit I am out of my league there. I was brought up Roman Catholic, and all I really know of the Eastern church is incense, bearded priests, and Rimsky-Korsakov's "Russian Easter Overture".

And believe you me, I'd much prefer a beefsteak tomato to an "ancestral" one. One thing I miss about the South up here in the Rockies, although this place is paradise, all the tomatoes have no real flavor...and tomatoes are my favorite berry!! [Yes, folks, it is technically a berry...]*snif*