Mamdouh Habib released

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

But the Constitution stops at our borders - and I see no reason why it should protect some foreign asshole killing our soldiers and who is taking part in bombing our country. Just the way I feel.

well then what about the "foreign asshole" who WASNT doing anything but was arrested anyway? What about the american "asshole" who gets arrested by the government in the name of "national security"? Where does it end exactly? And who gets to make the ultimate decision?

You've got to be joking. So I guess what you're idea is - just stop fighting Al Qaeda and terrorists because there will always be some "two bit nobody blowing crap up".

Your logic leaps are rather bizare today. My idea is simply why not just call it what it is: A war on Al Quaeda and Iraqi insurgants.

[Millane]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

But the Constitution stops at our borders - and I see no reason why it should protect some foreign asshole killing our soldiers and who is taking part in bombing our country. Just the way I feel.

He's an innocent man JD. now what sort of reasons would you have to say he's a "foreign asshole killing our soldiers and who is taking part in bombing our country", and if thats true why has he been released
OK so what your saying is, Its war, human rights dont matter... do you think that makes you look any better than the terrorists?
and now i would love to hear your thoughts on how the torture of these innocent detainees is just...

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

well then what about the "foreign asshole" who WASNT doing anything but was arrested anyway? What about the american "asshole" who gets arrested by the government in the name of "national security"? Where does it end exactly? And who gets to make the ultimate decision?

Most of the people arrested on American soil had visa and immigration disputes - they also did not go to Guantanimo Bay either. So I'm not completely sure which American assholes you're referring to.

Your logic leaps are rather bizare today. My idea is simply why not just call it what it is: A war on Al Quaeda and Iraqi insurgants.

Maybe because that's not what it is restricted to?

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Millane

He's an innocent man JD. now what sort of reasons would you have to say he's a "foreign asshole killing our soldiers and who is taking part in bombing our country", and if thats true why has he been released

Who said he was innocent? The Australian government doesn't even think he is innocent - it's just that your anti-terrorism laws aren't retroactive - so they can't try him.

OK so what your saying is, Its war, human rights dont matter... do you think that makes you look any better than the terrorists?

I didn't say human rights don't matter - but not all human rights are equal. I don't agree with torture - but detaining people found in the MIDDLE of a war zone - who ADMITTED to helping Al Qaeda and KNOWING about 9/11 - I don't see why they need to be treated with kid gloves in a civil court which will betray intelligence that is required to fight this war. We didn't do it in WWII - we're not going to do it now.

and now i would love to hear your thoughts on how the torture of these innocent detainees is just...

There has been no proof of torture in Guantanimo. I don't consider sleep deprevation or loud music to be torture or making peopl getting up at odd hours. I like how you say they're innocent - do you have proof they are innocent? What was he doing in Pakistan - going into Afganistan right after 9/11 if he was so innocent as you claim?

[Nurvingiel]

Darn post got buried... it's #20.

Though you do have a lot to respond to JD.

[Linaewen]

Originally Posted by Millane

...and i was also reading todays newspaper ...

Just a quick question first (I'm doing my English oral on this), which paper did you look at? You don't get The Age in Bendigo, do ya?

[Linaewen]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

I didn't say human rights don't matter - but not all human rights are equal. I don't agree with torture - but detaining people found in the MIDDLE of a war zone - who ADMITTED to helping Al Qaeda and KNOWING about 9/11 - I don't see why they need to be treated with kid gloves in a civil court which will betray intelligence that is required to fight this war. We didn't do it in WWII - we're not going to do it now.

His lawyer claims that he only admitted to this when he was tortured- and consequently, the evidence has to be discarded. He allegedly suffered electric shocks, and I've read about some of the conditions at Guantanamo Bay in the paper but that's just one article so I won't quote it yet.

[Millane]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Who said he was innocent? The Australian government doesn't even think he is innocent - it's just that your anti-terrorism laws aren't retroactive - so they can't try him.

well i think if the government will let an australian citizen get ****ed over for three years, they shouldnt be in power...

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

I didn't say human rights don't matter - but not all human rights are equal. I don't agree with torture - but detaining people found in the MIDDLE of a war zone - who ADMITTED to helping Al Qaeda and KNOWING about 9/11 - I don't see why they need to be treated with kid gloves in a civil court which will betray intelligence that is required to fight this war. We didn't do it in WWII - we're not going to do it now.

Because what you call being treated with kid gloves most people in the world call human rights and people come to expect it from countries like the USA and Australia when we constantly use it as our excuse to fight... Torture and wrongfull imprisonment just undermines everything that they're fighting for, and makes them look just as bad as the terrorists.

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

There has been no proof of torture in Guantanimo. I don't consider sleep deprevation or loud music to be torture or making peopl getting up at odd hours. I like how you say they're innocent - do you have proof they are innocent? What was he doing in Pakistan - going into Afganistan right after 9/11 if he was so innocent as you claim?

well read Lin's post, because those arent the tortures that they are reporting he suffered. Maybe you dont care about that innocent before proven guilty bullshit, but i seem to think thats the best way to try and find criminals, with the least amount of damage done. He was in Pakistan finding an Islamic school for his children, what a crime . Now JD ill ask you to gather the proof that he went into Afghanistan, because he's claiming he wasnt their at all, and he was arrested in Pakistan not Afghanistan...
Yes Lin, i read it in the age, which we do get in bendigo..

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Millane

well i think if the government will let an australian citizen get ****ed over for three years, they shouldnt be in power...
Because what you call being treated with kid gloves most people in the world call human rights and people come to expect it from countries like the USA and Australia when we constantly use it as our excuse to fight... Torture and wrongfull imprisonment just undermines everything that they're fighting for, and makes them look just as bad as the terrorists.

Who says it was wrongful imprisonment and not everyone considers loud music and forcing people to get up at odd hours to disorient prisoners as torture.

well read Lin's post, because those arent the tortures that they are reporting he suffered.

Lin doesn't say anything in her post about what the torture was. He was sent to Egypt - where he may have been tortured. That doesn't mean he was tortured by US personnel though. It also doesn't mean that his initial claims aren't true - which that he KNEW about 9/11 and was involved with Al Qaeda.

Maybe you dont care about that innocent before proven guilty bullshit, but i seem to think thats the best way to try and find criminals, with the least amount of damage done.

We're not talking about criminals - we're talking about people who were in or attempting to get INTO a war zone.

He was in Pakistan finding an Islamic school for his children, what a crime . Now JD ill ask you to gather the proof that he went into Afghanistan, because he's claiming he wasnt their at all, and he was arrested in Pakistan not Afghanistan...

I didn't say HE was in afganistan - I was also referring to Hicks. However - he was captured on the BORDER of Pakistan and Afganistan supposedly trying to get INTO AFganistan. YOu should provide proof that he's also telling the truth. YOu seem very willing to believe him.

What do you think he's going to do? Come back to Australia and say - "yes I was involved with Al Qaeda, I was on my way to Afganistan to fight America". yeah right. I find it funny how you are so quick to believe him - but yet you have no evidence that he's telling the truth at all either. You just want to believe it because your feeling is that giovernment is evil and therefore he must be telling the truth.

[Millane]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

You just want to believe it because your feeling is that giovernment is evil and therefore he must be telling the truth.

OK JD lets just let this slide back into your same bullshit from the Farenheit 911 thread, where you started trying to tell me my political stance. Your not getting any closer, and you wont, because i dont think its possible for you to think of it my way...

Who says it was wrongful imprisonment

Well that would be ME wouldnt it, I say that its wrongful inprisonment. Also again, why the **** was he released, they seem to have no problem keeping him there for years on end...

Lin doesn't say anything in her post about what the torture was.

"He allegedly suffered electric shocks" - Lin, the post above me...

we're talking about people who were in or attempting to get INTO a war zone.

or were SUSPECTED of doing those things, and to me three years is a pretty hefty price for someone who was neither found in or found attempting to enter Afghanistan...
OK JD, im not saying that theres no way he wasnt doing something he shouldnt, because it is quite possible but he wasnt found in afghanistan or attempting to get in, it seems to me from what i read was that he was suspected of travelling into afghanistan in his trip. And well three years for someones suspicions, that have amounted to nothing, deserves a bit of questioning, youd be stupid not to...

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Millane

OK JD lets just let this slide back into your same bullshit from the Farenheit 911 thread, where you started trying to tell me my political stance. Your not getting any closer, and you wont, because i dont think its possible for you to think of it my way...

You make a lot of your views known by what you say in yoiur posts.

Well that would be ME wouldnt it, I say that its wrongful inprisonment. Also again, why the **** was he released, they seem to have no problem keeping him there for years on end...

What makes it wrongful imprisonment. It is very well possible. But you have not given any proof that it wasn't - other than his statements. And there is a very good reason why in this war that the US government does NOT want to bring people to public trials and that is publicly announcing where intelligence comes from and things. WEe locked up people in World War II and kept them until the war was over (and I'm not talking about the intern camps either). The only reason why he was released anyway - was that the Australian government said he will not be allowed to leave the country, he will be monitored, etc. So basically - he's under semi-house arrest. Sot o say he was just "freed" is erroneous. He was freed on many many conditions.

"He allegedly suffered electric shocks" - Lin, the post above me...

yeah - I read that and the key word is "allegedly" - you however want to take waht ever he says as fact.

As an example the schools - it might very well be that he was looking for schools for his kids in Pakistan. That would be rather interesting - I would like to know WHICH schools he was looing into - because pakistan had the most radical madrasas around. So if he was associated with Al Qaeda - I'm sure he would like to send his kids there.

or were SUSPECTED of doing those things, and to me three years is a pretty hefty price for someone who was neither found in or found attempting to enter Afghanistan...

No- you see the military DID catch him on the border. You migth not recall - but we were and we are fighting a war.

OK JD, im not saying that theres no way he wasnt doing something he shouldnt, because it is quite possible but he wasnt found in afghanistan or attempting to get in, it seems to me from what i read was that he was suspected of travelling into afghanistan in his trip. And well three years for someones suspicions, that have amounted to nothing, deserves a bit of questioning, youd be stupid not to...

Fine - I'm glad he's out - I'm glad he's kept in Australia and is being monitored. I disagree with requiring the US to bring public court cases against these people though. This isn't a civil case - this is a war. It would divulge too much intelligence and we would just be handing Al Qaeda information. From what I have read - he was picked up on the border of Afganistand and Pakistan and was attempting to get across the border. I believe that based on the history of people who were captured.

The other reason why people are being let go after 3 years - is that we have determined that they no longer pose a threat. And that could be because of many reasons - the people who they were associated with may have all been captured - Australia and other countries have decided to take responsible control of their citizens and has allowed the US to hand them over without fear that they will just be left to their own devices.

[Millane]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

As an example the schools - it might very well be that he was looking for schools for his kids in Pakistan. That would be rather interesting - I would like to know WHICH schools he was looing into - because pakistan had the most radical madrasas around. So if he was associated with Al Qaeda - I'm sure he would like to send his kids there.

Could i just ask what sort of school you went to?

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Millane

Could i just ask what sort of school you went to?

Why? what does that have to with what kind of schools they have in pakistan?

[Millane]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Why? what does that have to with what kind of schools they have in pakistan?

It was just a question, you dont have to answer it. God your loving that rolleyes smilie arent you...