The making of a Palantir

[Artanis]

Who made the palantiri? The common answer is; Fëanor did. But this little convo between Pippin and Gandalf has left me wondering:

What is it about - the seven stars and seven stones?'
'About the palantÃ*ri of the Kings of Old,' said Gandalf.
'And what are they?'
'The name meant that which looks far away. The Orthanc-stone was one.'
'Then it was not made, not made' - Pippin hesitated - 'by the Enemy?'
'No,' said Gandalf. 'Nor by Saruman. It is beyond his art, and beyond Sauron's too. The palantÃ*ri came from beyond Westernesse from Eldamar. The Noldor made them. Fëanor himself, maybe, wrought them, in days so long ago that the time cannot be measured in years.

Here Gandalf states that Fëanor, an extraordinary Elf for sure but still only an Elf, was able to make something that the Maiar Sauron and Saruman could not. Isn't that remarkable.

Perhaps it has something to do with Gandalf's choice of words. He does not say 'beyond his power', but 'beyond his art'. May it be that the corruption of Saruman and Sauron has diminished their ability to be artists, an ability that is strongly inherent in all Elves, and not the least in Fëanor.

Edit - Side question: If the Palantiri were made in Eldamar, they must have been in use there too. I wonder by whom, and for what purpose.

Perhaps Fëanor made all his sons have one each so that he and Nerdanel would always know what the little brats were up to.

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Artanis

Who made the palantiri? The common answer is; Fëanor did. But this little convo between Pippin and Gandalf has left me wondering:
Here Gandalf states that Fëanor, an extraordinary Elf for sure but still only an Elf, was able to make something that the Maiar Sauron and Saruman could not. Isn't that remarkable.

Perhaps it has something to do with Gandalf's choice of words. He does not say 'beyond his power', but 'beyond his art'. May it be that the corruption of Saruman and Sauron has diminished their ability to be artists, an ability that is strongly inherent in all Elves, and not the least in Fëanor.

I think that you're right in that the key there is the use of the word "art" rather than "power." The two are certainly not synonymous.

As much as I'd hate to admit it , I don't think Fëanor was quite like anyone else. I'm fairly certain that none of the Valar were able, or inclined, to make something like the Silmarilli (after the death of the Trees, what need would they have had for them had they been able to?), so perhaps it is not so farfetched that Fëanor has more skill than several Maiar of Aulë.

And yet, the PalantÃ*ri are not the Silmarilli, and I doubt are anywhere at the same level.

Still, the word used here is "art", not power or skill. I think you may have the right of it, Artanis. After all, one must consider the power of Morgoth for creation, or lack there of.

And I think I'm rambling.

[me9996]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

I think that you're right in that the key there is the use of the word "art" rather than "power." The two are certainly not synonymous.

As much as I'd hate to admit it , I don't think Fëanor was quite like anyone else. I'm fairly certain that none of the Valar were able, or inclined, to make something like the Silmarilli (after the death of the Trees, what need would they have had for them had they been able to?), so perhaps it is not so farfetched that Fëanor has more skill than several Maiar of Aulë.

And yet, the PalantÃ*ri are not the Silmarilli, and I doubt are anywhere at the same level.

Still, the word used here is "art", not power or skill. I think you may have the right of it, Artanis. After all, one must consider the power of Morgoth for creation, or lack there of.

And I think I'm rambling.

Na, I think he means art as in skill or wit.
And I do think what's-his-name made it.

P.S.
Morgith can't create anything as he went bad before the others started makeing stuff

[Pytt]

No, but it wasn't Morgoth either. It was Sauron. And I don't thikn "art" in that way, Me. I think the art of making something useful, and qiute nice actually were beyond Sauron. It wasn't a device for corruption and gaining of power, which I think was the only Sauron could have made.

[Valandil]

Not too surprising if you think about it. None of those others had the 'art' to make a silmaril either. Each kind - and each individual, has their own gift.

None of the mighty had the 'art' to bear the One Ring as well as it was borne by Hobbits...

[ItalianLegolas]

I don't think the fact that the the Hobbits bore the Ring, is in any way a form of 'art', maybe a matter of 'will', or 'simple-mindedness', or 'pure-hearts', but 'art'? i think not

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

i was always under the impression that the noldor made quite a few palantiri, and seven were gifted to the lords of andunie, there is a passage, in UT IIRC, that says that this was when the faithful were under threat from the king's men, and so through these stones, the elves kept in contact with the faithful, and i also thought that they were made of the same sort of substance as the silmarils, a substance created by feanor himself, I thought, tho i may be wrong, and i often am.

[Valandil]

I don't know if there were lots of others, but now that you mention it, I think there was an 8th... on Elvenhome, IIRC, Seems like contact was cut off though...

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

i was always under the impression that the noldor made quite a few palantiri, and seven were gifted to the lords of andunie, there is a passage, in UT IIRC, that says that this was when the faithful were under threat from the king's men, and so through these stones, the elves kept in contact with the faithful, and i also thought that they were made of the same sort of substance as the silmarils, a substance created by feanor himself, I thought, tho i may be wrong, and i often am.

Like Valandil says, there is at least one that the Elves kept themselves, the stone in Avallónë.

IL, you're right. "Will" and "art" seem unrelated. However, the fact remains that neither is dependent upon power or might.

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Not too surprising if you think about it. None of those others had the 'art' to make a silmaril either. Each kind - and each individual, has their own gift.

Right, and the Elves were primarily artists. But, I think that perhaps both Sauron and Saruman would have been able to make a palantir or something similar, if they had turned their mind to it. When Gandalf said it was beyond their art, perhaps he was referring to a lost ability of sub-creation due to the corruption of their minds.