'Comparative Religion'

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I strongly disagree with this! I don't think preventing genocide is a selfish act. Do you really see it as one? Yes, the midwives were Hebrew, and a side-effect was that their own race would be saved, but genocide is WRONG, and that was their motive, IMO.

i'd like to see the text... my impression was that the pharaoh's intent was to stop the jewish population from growing and then rebelling (thus, only males were to be killed)... while the jews had the opposite intent... i think the idea of preventing genocide is very 20th century, and highly doubt that they would have disobeyed in the same way had it been egyptian males they were asked to kill

btw ~ i'm not saying what is right or wrong to me... i'm just explaining how rights and wrongs are relative to one's pov... many 'evils' have been done by many groups, including religious groups, that were considered 'moral' at the time they occured

[Rían]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
i'd like to see the text... my impression was that the pharaoh's intent was to stop the jewish population from growing and then rebelling (thus, only males were to be killed)... while the jews had the opposite intent...

Exodus chpt. 1.

And killing all the males would pretty much be genocide - when the males are all gone from a population, all the females turn catty, and would end up killing each other NO, seriously, I would classify that as genocide.

i think the idea of preventing genocide is very 20th century, and highly doubt that they would have disobeyed in the same way had it been egyptian males they were asked to kill

C'mon now, do you really think it's a modern idea? Perhaps the word hasn't been around until lately, but the idea has certainly been around since the beginning of societies and groups - "let's kill that group over there that doesn't agree with us". And the targeted group would certainly object, and those in it would try to thwart the plan.

I don't think your comment about the egyptian males applies - I don't see how an Egyptian ruler would ask that. The point of this particular historical story is that the Hebrew midwives lied because they honored God and His ways above Pharaoh and his ways, and put their lives at risk for the right thing, and God commended them.

And this is an exception, for an extreme time - which illustrates that lying, as we generally see it (IOW, selfish!) is wrong.

btw ~ i'm not saying what is right or wrong to me... i'm just explaining how rights and wrongs are relative to one's pov... many 'evils' have been done by many groups, including religious groups, that were considered 'moral' at the time they occured

And again, I'm not talking specifics - I'm saying that the general laws of right and wrong are in people's hearts, and they're the same at the base (altho some details may vary according to society and time) all over the world.

And the MORE important thing is that people even HAVE the concept of right and wrong, and THIS is also universal. There are a few exceptions, but the fact that they're considered abnormal is indicitive that NORMAL means to have a conscience.

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
The point of this particular historical story is that the Hebrew midwives lied because they honored God and His ways above Pharaoh and his ways, and put their lives at risk for the right thing, and God commended them.

no, they lied to save the people they cared for... are you saying that without god they would have just killed the babies?

[Rían]

They did save the people they cared for - and God loves people, and honoring Him means loving people, and their incentive is specifically stated to be that they honored God. And those who honor God end up loving people, God's creation.

And I am NOT saying AT ALL that without their belief in God they would have killed babies! BECAUSE God has placed His basic morality in ALL people's hearts, people do not think killing babies is right. That's why people who are for abortion generally don't want to call babies that are still in the womb "babies" - they call them tissue, or whatever else makes them feel comfortable.

[brownjenkins]

so we're basically saying the same thing... i'm just cutting out the middleman

[Starr Polish]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
that would still leave war in a somewhat gray area

IIRC, the Bible has some very specific guidelines about when war is justified, and they are very strict, and most modern wars (particularly the ones that have occured since I came into existence) are NOT justified by this biblical code. I cannot remember were in the Bible this was (I'm horrid at vaguely remembering passages from my youth group days, but no the actual placement of them)

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Starr Polish
IIRC, the Bible has some very specific guidelines about when war is justified, and they are very strict, and most modern wars (particularly the ones that have occured since I came into existence) are NOT justified by this biblical code. I cannot remember were in the Bible this was (I'm horrid at vaguely remembering passages from my youth group days, but no the actual placement of them)

interesting... maybe RÃ*an can help you out

it was always my impression... mostly from speaches by the pope, that there was no real exceptions to the 'thou shalt not kill', at least among roman catholics

[Rían]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
so we're basically saying the same thing... i'm just cutting out the middleman

You mean the Top Guy

So do you agree with my evaluation (tho not the reason behind it) that morals are basically the same all over the world, and it is the normal condition of people to have consciences that tell them if things are "right" or "wrong" (even if all the details of what's right or wrong may not be exactly the same)?

(and I may not get back to this thread before next week - heading off this weekend for a relaxing/fun kid-less time with my husband!)

[Janny]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
it was always my impression... mostly from speaches by the pope, that there was no real exceptions to the 'thou shalt not kill', at least among roman catholics

I was under the impression that it was not the Bible as such which determined the rules of war som much as St Augustine and St Thomas Aqinas.
I also thought that the Pope worked from 'thou shalt not murder' as opposed to 'kill'. But this is only a hunch.

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
So do you agree with my evaluation (tho not the reason behind it) that morals are basically the same all over the world, and it is the normal condition of people to have consciences that tell them if things are "right" or "wrong" (even if all the details of what's right or wrong may not be exactly the same)?

people, in general, do what the see as in their best interest, which is how we've developed this thing we call 'morals'... i don't see any little voices in people's heads... i think most consider a situation and make the choice they see as the best for themselves and those around them... a choice which often depends upon the current situation

[Rían]

OK, I'll reword it using your phrases, since you can't seem to agree with how I put it (you stinker! )

People, in general, do what they see as in their best interest, and most consider a situation and make the choice they see as the best for themselves and those around them ... a choice which often depends upon the current situation. And the choices that people make are very similar, as far as things like generally putting a high value on truth, faithfulness, and life, and thinking that lying, cheating, torturing and murder are, in general, wrong.

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
People, in general, do what they see as in their best interest, and most consider a situation and make the choice they see as the best for themselves and those around them ... a choice which often depends upon the current situation. And the choices that people make are very similar, as far as things like generally putting a high value on truth, faithfulness, and life, and thinking that lying, cheating, torturing and murder are, in general, wrong.

sounds like something i would say

*prepares for the botta de tempo*

[Rían]

Oh, cool term, and a new one on me!

*runs to google*

oh - heh heh! Who, me? 0:-)


]:-D