Iraqis Forgive Americans

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Fenir_LacDanan
I wonder if several Americans where held and tortured, brutalized and raped, would America be quick to forgive the perpretrators then? Its just plain stupidity to even say it.

yeah - funny how we forgave Japan AND Germany for the countless abuses against our soldiers during World War II. We went so far as to even rfebuild their countries. We didn't blame the abuses of our soldiers on all the people of those countries. During World War II - Hitler was starving our soldiers - particularly the airmen who were captured after the bombing of Dresden.

Over 400,000 American soldiers died during World War II - becasuse of Germany and Japan. It's even a higher number if you add in the deaths of American soldiers because of Germany in World War I.

They will forgive us - because it wasn't America who did it - it was a few Americans. As time goes on - they will see this - once there is security in their country and so forth.

[Radagast]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
yeah - funny how we forgave Japan AND Germany for the countless abuses against our soldiers during World War II. We went so far as to even rfebuild their countries. We didn't blame the abuses of our soldiers on all the people of those countries. During World War II - Hitler was starving our soldiers - particularly the airmen who were captured after the bombing of Dresden.

Over 400,000 American soldiers died during World War II - becasuse of Germany and Japan. It's even a higher number if you add in the deaths of American soldiers because of Germany in World War I.

They will forgive us - because it wasn't America who did it - it was a few Americans. As time goes on - they will see this - once there is security in their country and so forth.

That is a spurious argument. 400,000 American soldiers died during torture? Rubbish, it was nothing like that number. Regardless, Japan cannot entirely be blamed- for one and a half thousand years their culture had taught them to believe that a defeated enemy was worthless. America, on the other hand, who frequently and blatantly trumpets herself as having the higher moral ground, has no such excuse.

As for Germany, the Nazi regime was humanity's worst episode- a stain on the pages of history, I am sure you will agree that America cannot be compared to them.

I am not sure that it was 'a few Americans'. What is truly frightening is that more and more pictures of Americans abusing Iraqis just keep on coming. They seem infinite. And what terrifes me to the bone is how jovial they look. Nowadays it seems every common enlisted soldier is possessed of a digital camera and these pictures fly back and forth until some horrified journalist is informed of them.

I do not, of course, blame the Ameican nation. I blame what the American nation has been fed, a systematic dogma of her own moral supremacy. 'Anything goes' because, after all, the Iraqis aren't real soldiers, are they, Jerseydevil?

[Beruthiel's cat]

Originally posted by jerseydevil

They will forgive us - because it wasn't America who did it - it was a few Americans. As time goes on - they will see this - once there is security in their country and so forth.

I really doubt there will be much forgiveness, JD. You are talking about a region of the world where there are vast cultural and religious differences that keep us apart. The fundamentalists and radicals that are behind the bombings and attacks have not embraced Western (i.e. European/American) philosophies and ideals and have no intention of doing so (unlike Japan prior to and after WWII). They will not diferentiate between a group of individuals and an entire nation because they will stereotype all Americans into subscribing to one philosophy, as many Americans do when discussing the people of the Middle East. You can see the factions that hold grudges and seek revenge by turning on the news. It is very unlikely that there will be any real gratitude to the United States for a long while (although I suppose there will be individuals that will be grateful for US assistance on a personal level). Our troops and citizens will doubtless continue to be targets of disgruntled Iraqis for years to come.

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
yeah - funny how we forgave Japan AND Germany for the countless abuses against our soldiers during World War II. We went so far as to even rfebuild their countries.

Well thats wrong. Firstly, you did not rebuild their countries out of the goodness of your hearts, and you bloody well know it. It was to have two strong allies against the communists during the cold war.

And whos this "we"? The soldiers who were abused by Germany and Japan, and the civilians, (the actual people), do not, ever forgive. They hate their foes until they die. The nation can forgive, over time, but not the people.

And the iraqi people aint ever gonna forgive you. People in that region have very, VERY, long memories when it comes to past abuses.

[Valandil]

Sadly, it's hard for me to envision much 'forgiveness'. We bungled that... and it's important that we handle future issues better than we did that one. Each additional major gaffe we make becomes magnified in the rhetoric of those who oppose us... so we can't slip up. We can't give them the political ammunition they make such good use of.

[QueenAnnesLace]

As for forgiveness of a nation for things that are done by individuals from a specific nation, possible. Forgiveness to the individuals who commit the acts, unlikely. But even people that have crimes committed against them sometimes choose to forgive instead of carrying the burden of bitterness, and resentment around for the rest of thier lives. Forgiving is one thing, but forgetting is nearly impossible.

[Radagast The Brown]

I think that the Iraqis will forgive USA, but not right now, and maybe even not next year. But more 5 years or so, if they would still be democratic, I think the US will be remembered as the one who brought freedom, and not as the one who tortured Iraqis.
If we forgive the Germans about WWII, they should forgive USA about the tortures.

Edit - Can you (all) please stop using 'Middle East' as if only Muslims lived there? Hmmm... I wouldn't mind, if I hadn't lived there... (here, in Middle East). Thanks.
(Example - They will not diferentiate between a group of individuals and an entire nation because they will stereotype all Americans into subscribing to one philosophy, as many Americans do when discussing the people of the Middle East.")

[Beruthiel's cat]

Mea culpa, RtB!

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Beruthiel's cat
Mea culpa, RtB!

That's ok. It's not only you, anyway, So I didn't want to write your name near the quote.

[The Gaffer]

IMO, forgiveness would depend on what is being forgiven.

If I understand it correctly, Arab resentment against America in particular, and the West in general, is based around the Palestinian situation. A free, viable, independent Palestine would be the answer to that one.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
IMO, forgiveness would depend on what is being forgiven.

If I understand it correctly, Arab resentment against America in particular, and the West in general, is based around the Palestinian situation. A free, viable, independent Palestine would be the answer to that one.

First - unfortunately... although it might seem very easy to be done, an independent Palestine would have to be agreed with Israel, and since Sharon's party's ideology is about the 'full Israel'... it would be hard.
Besides, now, when Sharon wants to get out of Gaza Strip, the Palestinians don't want us to go from some reason. Sharon can't get out of Gaza anyway, because the most of the coalition he made is against this action.

Second - the hate to the Western World is not only about the Palestinian country. The leaders of the Arabic world see the Western culture as a danger to their religion. I don't think the hate will disappear when (if?) Palestine independent country will be made.

[The Gaffer]

Agree with you there; I never said it would be easy. I'd also stand by Israel's right to exist.

HOWEVER

I think this "clash of cultures" thing is overplayed. Arabs are people like everyone else. Yes, the fundamentalists equate the West with materialism, and see it as the degenerate antithesis of a spiritual endeavour. Conversely, those who perceive themselves to be materially deprived (e.g. Saudi Arabia is rolling in oil money, yet has massive unemployment) can feel attracted to an extreme (political/spiritualist) movement.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Radagast
That is a spurious argument. 400,000 American soldiers died during torture? Rubbish, it was nothing like that number.

I never said they were from torture that 400,00 american soldiers died. i stated from the world War II 400,000 American soldiers died - I did state that many POWs were tortured in German and japanese prison camps also. Two different statements.

Regardless, Japan cannot entirely be blamed- for one and a half thousand years their culture had taught them to believe that a defeated enemy was worthless. America, on the other hand, who frequently and blatantly trumpets herself as having the higher moral ground, has no such excuse.

So - and show me the PROOF that this prison abuse scandal was a United States sanctioned thing in Iraq. There IS a difference between the government advocating the torture in Iraq versus a few soldiers taking it upon themselves.

As for Germany, the Nazi regime was humanity's worst episode- a stain on the pages of history, I am sure you will agree that America cannot be compared to them.

Exactly - yet we and the world have managed to forgive Germany. I'm glad you see my point.

I am not sure that it was 'a few Americans'. What is truly frightening is that more and more pictures of Americans abusing Iraqis just keep on coming. They seem infinite. And what terrifes me to the bone is how jovial they look. Nowadays it seems every common enlisted soldier is possessed of a digital camera and these pictures fly back and forth until some horrified journalist is informed of them.

Hmmm - and Rumsfeld and others said there would be MORE pictures - so it shouldn't be any surprise that there are more prictures. Also - all the pictures have the same soldiers in it. So so much for your argument that it can't be issolated because of the number of pictures being released - especially all the pictures are of the same soldiers.

I do not, of course, blame the Ameican nation. I blame what the American nation has been fed, a systematic dogma of her own moral supremacy. 'Anything goes' because, after all, the Iraqis aren't real soldiers, are they, Jerseydevil?

That was NEVER stated that they weren't real soldiers. The only argument that was used was against the Al Qaeda terrorists - not the Iraqis. As has been repeatedly stated the Geneva Conventions applied in Iraq and was the STANDARD operating pocedure. Don't be putting words in my mouth. As for us being morally superior - yeah I think we are - based on the history of the many other countries in the world. It's funny how Britain seems to still try to stand up as the moral superior - considering IT'S colonial and ruthless history.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Fenir_LacDanan
Well thats wrong. Firstly, you did not rebuild their countries out of the goodness of your hearts, and you bloody well know it. It was to have two strong allies against the communists during the cold war.

So - we still spent billions to rebuild Europe as well as our enemies - Germany and Japan. We could have done what the Soviet Union did and just taken over the rest of Europe.

And whos this "we"? The soldiers who were abused by Germany and Japan, and the civilians, (the actual people), do not, ever forgive. They hate their foes until they die. The nation can forgive, over time, but not the people.

yeah - and therefore the IRAQI'S will forgive the US over time.

And the iraqi people aint ever gonna forgive you. People in that region have very, VERY, long memories when it comes to past abuses.

Hmm - I thought you just said that nations forgive people, but the abused don't. So which is it? The soldiers did NOT abuse the entire nation - so how can you make a statement like that after what you said in the previous paragraph.

[Nerdanel]

Whoa! 4+1 -smileys in two posts!

[BeardofPants]

Yeah, it'd be interesting to do an analysis on the distribution of "" smilies in his posts, and how they correlate with political versus non-political threads...

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Yeah, it'd be interesting to do an analysis on the distribution of "" smilies in his posts, and how they correlate with political versus non-political threads...

Wow - nice observation - if only that were true. Since when is Jackson and his hack movies considered a political discussion?

I just think what they were saying was completely moronic. of course you are the queen of the rolleyes - I learned it from you. Go look at the past threads from two years ago - and check if you can't remember.

[Ragnarok]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
yeah - funny how we forgave Japan AND Germany for the countless abuses against our soldiers during World War II. We went so far as to even rfebuild their countries. We didn't blame the abuses of our soldiers on all the people of those countries. During World War II - Hitler was starving our soldiers - particularly the airmen who were captured after the bombing of Dresden.

Over 400,000 American soldiers died during World War II - becasuse of Germany and Japan. It's even a higher number if you add in the deaths of American soldiers because of Germany in World War I.

They will forgive us - because it wasn't America who did it - it was a few Americans. As time goes on - they will see this - once there is security in their country and so forth.

Lets not play innocent here, lets take a look at the great unjustice done to the Japanese Americans who were forced to live in Interment Camps in the U.S. during WWII.

The order set into motion the exclusion from certain areas, and the evacuation and mass incarceration of 120,000 persons of Japanese ancestry living on the West Coast, most of whom were U.S. citizens or legal permanent resident aliens.

These Japanese Americans, half of whom were children, were incarcerated for up to 4 years, without due process of law or any factual basis, in bleak, remote camps surrounded by barbed wire and armed guards.

They were forced to evacuate their homes and leave their jobs; in some cases family members were separated and put into different camps. President Roosevelt himself called the 10 facilities "concentration camps."

Some Japanese Americans died in the camps due to inadequate medical care and the emotional stresses they encountered. Several were killed by military guards posted for allegedly resisting orders.

"In the detention centers, families lived in substandard housing, had inadequate nutrition and health care, and had their livelihoods destroyed: many continued to suffer psychologically long after their release"
- "Personal Justice Denied: Report of the Commission on Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians"

~ http://www.children-of-the-camps.org/history/index.html

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ragnarok
Lets not play innocent here, lets take a look at the great unjustice done to the Japanese Americans who were forced to live in Interment Camps in the U.S. during WWII.

"In the detention centers, families lived in substandard housing, had inadequate nutrition and health care, and had their livelihoods destroyed: many continued to suffer psychologically long after their release"
- "Personal Justice Denied: Report of the Commission on Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians"

~ http://www.children-of-the-camps.org/history/index.html

yeah - that really compares to the TORTURE - physical abuse and death that was done to the American POWs.

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
So - we still spent billions to rebuild Europe as well as our enemies - Germany and Japan. We could have done what the Soviet Union did and just taken over the rest of Europe.

"SO" - you still didn't do it out of forgiveness, like your post implies, and you know it. You did it for political reasons, not forgiveness, which is exactly what I said.

Originally posted by jerseydevil
yeah - and therefore the IRAQI'S will forgive the US over time.

The entire region hates America, and its reasons are far based back in history. RtB hit the nail on the head, with Palastine being the biggest problem. The Arabs still blame America for supporting Israel, whom they see as invaders. They dont forget. So the Iraqi people are not going to forget the abuses of their helpless, unarmed prisoners in captivity. Are they?

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Hmm - I thought you just said that nations forgive people, but the abused don't. So which is it? The soldiers did NOT abuse the entire nation - so how can you make a statement like that after what you said in the previous paragraph.

Therefore, only those who were actually killed 9/11, or their families, should hate those responsible. After all, the planes didn't hit jersey, did they?

What I said was that 'nations' can forgive over time. It could take hundreds of years. Israel vs Palastine = Isralites vs Philistines? These people hate their enemies forever, and I dont see how you think that abusing their people in captivity will warrant their forgiveness. (oh yes, I can hit the button as well.)