Sam is overloving - Page 2

Rosie Gamgee · 10-02-2003, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elfhelm
Sam is my favorite character. One of the main reasons I like him so much is that he has no artifice. If he doesn't like you, he doesn't pretend to be your pal. If he loves you, he is not afraid to show it - except that he's shy concerning Rosie Cotton. But overcoming his shyness is one of the things he has to learn. Saying his feelings for Rosie was harder than climbing Mount Doom, but in the end he did it. Yes, it was easier to show his love for his comrades than his desire for his true love. But aside from that, he wears no mask and I just love him!

Totally!!! I don't think I ever really realized that that is one of the things I like most about Sam.
I like your wording of Sam's relationship with Rosie. Cute.

hectorberlioz · 10-02-2003, 06:37 PM

i admit. i was scared to say sam seemed a little homosexual in the movies. its because of ian mckellan. he said " it would be appreciated by gay people in the audience" and i'm saying sam should not be like that! thats the type of "overloving" i mean.

Elfhelm · 10-02-2003, 06:58 PM

Oh! You are refering to the comment that is on the voice over commentary on the extended DVD of Fellowship. He encouraged Sean Astin to take Elijah Wood's hand as he came running to the bedside. He pointed out that the gesture was in the book. Well, no matter what terms Ian used to discuss it beyond that, the act is not a homosexual act. It is just plain friendship. The taking of his hand is very tender, and in movies you have to show things. It's not enough to say them. I think the gesture works. Taking a friend's hand when he is on his sickbed and nearly died is really just ordinary behavior, even in America.

Elfhelm · 10-02-2003, 07:55 PM

To me, this reminds me of many scenes in war movies from the late 40's. And considering Tolkien's trench experiences, I would say it is appropriate.

Sam holding Frodo

hectorberlioz · 10-03-2003, 12:50 AM

I trhink it was appropriate also. what i dont like is that ian mckellan gives you that impression that it was because they were gay(maybe he's subtly trying to incorporate it into the movies. thats the impression sam gives me in TTT. )

cassiopeia · 10-03-2003, 02:47 AM

Can't say I see Sam being homosexual in the movies. Sam held Frodo's hand in Rivendell in the book. If people want to interpret this as a homosexual act, let them. It never states in the books or movies whether Sam and Frodo were 'gay'. As McKellan is gay himself, perhaps he interprets their relationship as more than friends. And he's allowed to at that. But anybody who has read the book knows Sam ends up with Rosie.

hectorberlioz · 10-03-2003, 12:14 PM

Alright. case closed. no more posting here. let it go down...

Elfhelm · 10-03-2003, 03:09 PM

I think Ian was referring to the writers of fanfic, some of which is pretty absurd. Or maybe he was saying the fans would appreciate it if the actors followed the book (YES, PLEASE!!!!). In any case, I took my Dad's hand after his quadruple bypass operation. I was just SO GLAD that he was still with us. That's exactly what I sensed that Sean was conveying in that scene.

hectorberlioz · 10-03-2003, 03:16 PM

WOW! does no one see what i'm saying?
as i said. let this thread go down....

Elf Girl · 10-03-2003, 03:39 PM

Huh? Why? We're having a nice discussion, why do you want it closed?

hectorberlioz · 10-03-2003, 03:41 PM

go ahead then. i regret this thread, and i wont be part of it.(maybe)

Elfhelm · 10-03-2003, 04:12 PM

When I was 16 I would have been very uncomfortable with this discussion, so all I can do is empathize with you. It has been 31 years since I was 16, though, and it turned out my best friend was that way, so I had to learn to live and let live (or else miss out on incredibly intelligent and longwinded conversations about the entire history of music).

All I can guess he meant was that some of the fans are like him (and like my best friend), just as some are like you and some are like me. What most concerns US is that they stick to the book. Any interpretation beyond that is just normal fan behavior.

I think they stuck to the book, so I am happy with it.

hectorberlioz · 10-03-2003, 04:14 PM

Okay then. Thank you again Elfhelm.

ryttu3k · 01-03-2004, 01:44 PM

It's like what Tolkien experienced in the war - the fellowship and companionship in the trenches. I read that that was one of the most significant periods of his life, so of course love that deep will be in the books.

Yes, love. Pure and complete love, possibly more than Sam felt for Rosie. But no, not romantic or sexual love. It's like... the love you'd have for your child, only on equal footing. It's a higher love.

Having said that, I still think Frodo and Sam would have been a cute couple

GrayMouser · 01-11-2004, 10:56 AM

I think there was a lot more touchy-feely in FotR:

Bilbo hugging Gandalf at the beginning;

Bilbo hugging Frodo at Rivendell- in the book he self-consciously slaps him on the back to defuse the emotion of the moment.

Sam and Frodo hugging in the boat after Frodo rescues Sam, whereas in the book he comes out with "Of all the confounded nuisances you are the worst."

I don't think that this is some hidden agenda, just a contrast between a more modern acceptance of emotional displays vs. traditional British reserve.

"But it is the way of my people to use light words at such time and say less than they mean. We fear to say too much."

I think the interaction between Sam and Frodo in TTT and RotK was about right.

But... do you think the bit about Sam wanting to marry Rosie (when they're waiting to be swept away by lava on the slopes of Mount Doom) was deliberately put in to deflect comments on the nature of their relationship?

Elfhelm · 01-11-2004, 04:43 PM

No. The connection between Sam and Rosie is highlighted in one of the first scenes in the theatrical release of Fellowship, expanded in the Extended version, and fundamental to the story. Sam is the hero and Rosie is the reason, in my opinion. We are all Sam. Frodo is who we wish we were, who suffers, is beaten down, who we have to carry up the mountain. The Frodo archetype doesn't get married because it's not about partnership, but Sam does because he's not an archetype.

Anyway, on the topic of physical contact and males expressing affection to one another, perhaps exploring the opinions of Tolkien and his friends on this matter would be more useful than encouraging teenage fears of ostraciziation.

10-02-2003, 06:37 PM	#22
hectorberlioz Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lost in the Opera House Posts: 9,328	i admit. i was scared to say sam seemed a little homosexual in the movies. its because of ian mckellan. he said " it would be appreciated by gay people in the audience" and i'm saying sam should not be like that! thats the type of "overloving" i mean. __________________ ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide

10-02-2003, 06:58 PM	#23
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	Oh! You are refering to the comment that is on the voice over commentary on the extended DVD of Fellowship. He encouraged Sean Astin to take Elijah Wood's hand as he came running to the bedside. He pointed out that the gesture was in the book. Well, no matter what terms Ian used to discuss it beyond that, the act is not a homosexual act. It is just plain friendship. The taking of his hand is very tender, and in movies you have to show things. It's not enough to say them. I think the gesture works. Taking a friend's hand when he is on his sickbed and nearly died is really just ordinary behavior, even in America. __________________ cya Last edited by Elfhelm : 10-02-2003 at 07:00 PM.

10-02-2003, 07:55 PM	#24
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	To me, this reminds me of many scenes in war movies from the late 40's. And considering Tolkien's trench experiences, I would say it is appropriate. Sam holding Frodo __________________ cya

10-03-2003, 12:50 AM	#25
hectorberlioz Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lost in the Opera House Posts: 9,328	I trhink it was appropriate also. what i dont like is that ian mckellan gives you that impression that it was because they were gay(maybe he's subtly trying to incorporate it into the movies. thats the impression sam gives me in TTT. ) __________________ ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide

10-03-2003, 02:47 AM	#26
cassiopeia Viggoholic Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 1,749	Can't say I see Sam being homosexual in the movies. Sam held Frodo's hand in Rivendell in the book. If people want to interpret this as a homosexual act, let them. It never states in the books or movies whether Sam and Frodo were 'gay'. As McKellan is gay himself, perhaps he interprets their relationship as more than friends. And he's allowed to at that. But anybody who has read the book knows Sam ends up with Rosie. __________________ Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try.

10-03-2003, 12:14 PM	#27
hectorberlioz Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lost in the Opera House Posts: 9,328	Alright. case closed. no more posting here. let it go down... __________________ ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide Last edited by hectorberlioz : 10-03-2003 at 01:00 PM.

10-03-2003, 03:09 PM	#28
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	I think Ian was referring to the writers of fanfic, some of which is pretty absurd. Or maybe he was saying the fans would appreciate it if the actors followed the book (YES, PLEASE!!!!). In any case, I took my Dad's hand after his quadruple bypass operation. I was just SO GLAD that he was still with us. That's exactly what I sensed that Sean was conveying in that scene. __________________ cya

10-03-2003, 03:16 PM	#29
hectorberlioz Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lost in the Opera House Posts: 9,328	WOW! does no one see what i'm saying? as i said. let this thread go down.... __________________ ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide

10-03-2003, 03:39 PM	#30
Elf Girl Lurker Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Lothlórien Posts: 3,419	Huh? Why? We're having a nice discussion, why do you want it closed? __________________ There's antimony, arsenic, aluminum, selenium...

10-03-2003, 03:41 PM	#31
hectorberlioz Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lost in the Opera House Posts: 9,328	go ahead then. i regret this thread, and i wont be part of it.(maybe) __________________ ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide

10-03-2003, 04:12 PM	#32
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	When I was 16 I would have been very uncomfortable with this discussion, so all I can do is empathize with you. It has been 31 years since I was 16, though, and it turned out my best friend was that way, so I had to learn to live and let live (or else miss out on incredibly intelligent and longwinded conversations about the entire history of music). All I can guess he meant was that some of the fans are like him (and like my best friend), just as some are like you and some are like me. What most concerns US is that they stick to the book. Any interpretation beyond that is just normal fan behavior. I think they stuck to the book, so I am happy with it. __________________ cya

10-03-2003, 04:14 PM	#33
hectorberlioz Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lost in the Opera House Posts: 9,328	Okay then. Thank you again Elfhelm. __________________ ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide

01-03-2004, 01:44 PM	#34
ryttu3k Enting Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 61	It's like what Tolkien experienced in the war - the fellowship and companionship in the trenches. I read that that was one of the most significant periods of his life, so of course love that deep will be in the books. Yes, love. Pure and complete love, possibly more than Sam felt for Rosie. But no, not romantic or sexual love. It's like... the love you'd have for your child, only on equal footing. It's a higher love. Having said that, I still think Frodo and Sam would have been a cute couple

01-11-2004, 10:56 AM	#35
GrayMouser Elf Lord Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Ilha Formosa Posts: 2,068	I think there was a lot more touchy-feely in FotR: Bilbo hugging Gandalf at the beginning; Bilbo hugging Frodo at Rivendell- in the book he self-consciously slaps him on the back to defuse the emotion of the moment. Sam and Frodo hugging in the boat after Frodo rescues Sam, whereas in the book he comes out with "Of all the confounded nuisances you are the worst." I don't think that this is some hidden agenda, just a contrast between a more modern acceptance of emotional displays vs. traditional British reserve. "But it is the way of my people to use light words at such time and say less than they mean. We fear to say too much." I think the interaction between Sam and Frodo in TTT and RotK was about right. But... do you think the bit about Sam wanting to marry Rosie (when they're waiting to be swept away by lava on the slopes of Mount Doom) was deliberately put in to deflect comments on the nature of their relationship? __________________ Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill

01-11-2004, 04:43 PM	#36
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	No. The connection between Sam and Rosie is highlighted in one of the first scenes in the theatrical release of Fellowship, expanded in the Extended version, and fundamental to the story. Sam is the hero and Rosie is the reason, in my opinion. We are all Sam. Frodo is who we wish we were, who suffers, is beaten down, who we have to carry up the mountain. The Frodo archetype doesn't get married because it's not about partnership, but Sam does because he's not an archetype. Anyway, on the topic of physical contact and males expressing affection to one another, perhaps exploring the opinions of Tolkien and his friends on this matter would be more useful than encouraging teenage fears of ostraciziation. __________________ cya

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