Thorongil......

[Dúnedain]

Last night I just re-read the appendices. I wish Tolkien had made more works just out of what he has in the appendices, but that is neither here nor there and a whole other thread at that! Anyway, my main thing is with Thorongil, does anyone know that he is Aragorn when he finally comes back to Gondor those many years later? Also, does Boromir recognize him as being Thorongil? Is there a work that mentions his life as Thorongil further outside of the snipet of information we get in the appendices? Aragorn as Thorongil would have made a kickass story/book as well!!

[cassiopeia]

It says in the appendices that Thorongil served Ecthelion II and Thengel from 2957-80 and after that never returned to Minas Tirith. Boromir was born in 2978, so he was probably too young to remember Thorongil.

[Dunadan]

Denethor might have recognised him, especially since he regarded Thorongil as a rival. Probably just as well they never met, as Aragorn might have some explaining to do: "So, if you're the true king, why didn't you say so all those years ago??" "Well, you know, I've been busy. What with the hobbits to guard and elf-maidens to woo .. er.. you know how it is."

[Sween]

I dont think even if he was the captin of gondors armys he could just go ermmm by the way i happen to be king as well he or more likely elrond probably deemed the time was not ripe to revele himself to gondor or to sauron.

do you reckonhe carried round the shards of narsil with him back then?

[Dunadan]

I suspect not; waving around a broken sword might not have been too impressive in the battles with the Corsairs.

I think there is something in the Appendices which suggests Denethor suspected who Thorongil really was and that Gandalf was planning to supplant him

cheers

d.

[Beleg Strongbow]

I agree (with Sween). If Sauron had known that Thorongil was the heir of Elendil, don't you think he would've smacked him?

[Dunadan]

It doesn't sound like Aragorn to hide behind Denethor

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Dunadan
I suspect not; waving around a broken sword might not have been too impressive in the battles with the Corsairs.

I think there is something in the Appendices which suggests Denethor suspected who Thorongil really was and that Gandalf was planning to supplant him

cheers

d.

Well it doesn't mention or allude to Denethor knowing who he is, however it does state that Denethor felt that when Thorongil praised Gandalf and mistrusted Saruman, that he thought something suspicious was up and that Gandalf would try and take over with Thorongil.

[Dunadan]

What do people think about that whole "when the time is ripe" thing?

Gondor had already rejected the northern Dunedain's claim to the throne (I think it was Arvedui) way back when the Wainriders invaded. Indeed, they preferred to have no king at all than to trolley in some impostor from Arthedain.

It seems to me that the deciding factor was that the common people accepted him: Elfstone, "hands of the healer" and all that. Is this what Elrond was foreseeing? Could Aragorn only be accepted when Gondor was so desperate that he would be hailed as their saviour? Did Gondor have be on its knees before the king could return?

cheers

d.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Last night I just re-read the appendices. I wish Tolkien had made more works just out of what he has in the appendices, but that is neither here nor there and a whole other thread at that! Anyway, my main thing is with Thorongil, does anyone know that he is Aragorn when he finally comes back to Gondor those many years later? Also, does Boromir recognize him as being Thorongil? Is there a work that mentions his life as Thorongil further outside of the snipet of information we get in the appendices? Aragorn as Thorongil would have made a kickass story/book as well!!

I don't know of any other work -- wouldn't it be great!

Denethor might have suspected who he was, once he heard of Aragorn. He was old enough to remember. I'm surprised nobody is said to have remembered him in Rohan, where he first served Théoden's father before going to Gondor.

[azalea]

Originally posted by Dunadan
What do people think about that whole "when the time is ripe" thing?

Gondor had already rejected the northern Dunedain's claim to the throne (I think it was Arvedui) way back when the Wainriders invaded. Indeed, they preferred to have no king at all than to trolley in some impostor from Arthedain.

It seems to me that the deciding factor was that the common people accepted him: Elfstone, "hands of the healer" and all that. Is this what Elrond was foreseeing? Could Aragorn only be accepted when Gondor was so desperate that he would be hailed as their saviour? Did Gondor have be on its knees before the king could return?

cheers

d.

To me, I think it goes back to the "meant to" argument, that the events were being affected by unseen forces (Eru perhaps?). Elrond might have had the intuition that the time was not ripe because of his higher connection or what have you. Aragorn was meant to be with Frodo, he was meant to fight as he did, and only then was he meant to become king. I think the people might have accepted him (although there's no way of knowing for sure), but I think there would have been problems and dissention because of Denethor, and his rule might have been marred. And really until then, Gondor was okay without a king, but once Sauron was defeated, the return of the king brought some unity to the lands. So I don't think Gondor needed to be on its knees before he could make the rightful claim, but it wasn't necessary until then, and he was needed in other matters that, were he king, he probably wouldn't have attended to. Things certainly would have played out differently if he had been king already, and the outcome may not have been good -- we just don't know (but it's fun to speculate! )

[Earniel]

Originally posted by The Lady of Ithilien
Denethor might have suspected who he was, once he heard of Aragorn. He was old enough to remember. I'm surprised nobody is said to have remembered him in Rohan, where he first served Théoden's father before going to Gondor.

The lifespan of the Rohirrim was shorter than that of the Gondoreans. So it's quite possible that no one was left alive to remember him. Aragorn served Théoden's father but at the time of the war of the ring, Théoden himself was already rather old. That's my explanation for it.

[Dúnedain]

I wish Tolkien had written more in regards to Aragorn's early life, especially while serving Rohan and Gondor, in the little snippet that we get in the appendix, you really see the true character of Aragorn, specifically when he raids Umbar and burns the ships of the Corsairs. Plus, you also see and catch a glimpse of how the people love him, which you later see when he comes back to Gondor as Aragorn. I think the fact that the people loved him and wanted him to be around shows his kingliness before the fact, kinda as a forshadow and I think that doesn't sit well with Denethor and makes Thorongil an even bigger rival than before...

[Dúnedain]

Yeah I was thinking about this more today and wondering whether Theoden remembered Aragorn/Thorongil. I mean Theoden was past his prime when Aragorn came back, so it would make sense if Theoden remembered him, however nothing of this sort is mentioned, does anyone know?

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
I wish Tolkien had written more in regards to Aragorn's early life, especially while serving Rohan and Gondor, in the little snippet that we get in the appendix, you really see the true character of Aragorn, specifically when he raids Umbar and burns the ships of the Corsairs. Plus, you also see and catch a glimpse of how the people love him, which you later see when he comes back to Gondor as Aragorn. I think the fact that the people loved him and wanted him to be around shows his kingliness before the fact, kinda as a forshadow and I think that doesn't sit well with Denethor and makes Thorongil an even bigger rival than before...

Yes.

It's interesting how JRRT turned the whole "young man must earn a kingdom to get the girl" model upside down with Aragorn, introducing him to us at the age of 80-some years, grim and rather grizzled, but somehow trustworthy and wise and interesting. I've heard that among JRRT's last works was one that he abandoned, a story about Aragorn's son that he didn't finish because it turned into a thriller, a genre which he despised: stories of Thorongil, though, would have been wonderful.

[Anglorfin]

Originally posted by Dunadan
What do people think about that whole "when the time is ripe" thing?

Gondor had already rejected the northern Dunedain's claim to the throne (I think it was Arvedui) way back when the Wainriders invaded. Indeed, they preferred to have no king at all than to trolley in some impostor from Arthedain.

It seems to me that the deciding factor was that the common people accepted him: Elfstone, "hands of the healer" and all that. Is this what Elrond was foreseeing? Could Aragorn only be accepted when Gondor was so desperate that he would be hailed as their saviour? Did Gondor have be on its knees before the king could return?

cheers

d.

He was also deemed to be the true King of both Gondor and Arnor because his mother came from Anarion's line, but he was also in direct descent from Isildur's fourth son, Valandil.

But yes, it was a great deal of public acceptance that gained him the kingship. As was the case with Arvedui. Arvedui had the rightful claim to the kingship, but it was Gondor's chief general, Earnil, that gained the throne because the people saw his victories and knew who he was.