Gray areas in Tolkien's LotR

[jusu]

As Tolkien himself said in LotR preface, there are some gray areas in his books which he, as others had not noticed them, hadn't corrected. I wonder whether you folks have already discussed this subject but here are some issues which I have noticed (perhaps there is an answer, had I read (and listened the audio)book more carefully:
1. Did the Black Riders fear Aragorn so much at Withertop (?) that they didn't attack again and take the ring from Frodo?
2. After distroying the ring Sam woke after a fortnight of sleep? Did Aragorn but them to deep sleep to heal like they have done nowadays to some badly hurt formula drivers?
3. Theoden knew Dernhelm, as he asked him/her to ride against Haradrim but didn't recognize her as Eowyn (always wear a helmet like a good biker)? And Theoden was not surprised to see Merri there?
4. How could Faramir know Aragorn and call him king when he woke up in the Houses of Healing. Had Frodo or Sam told him when they met or perhaps Gandalf? He had not seen Aragorn before?

There are probably some more but still this magnificient book is as tight and accurate as a fantasy book can be.

[Legolas]

I have read the books some time ago, but I think I have some answers to these:

1. I think Aragorn, while not being able to kill the Nazgul, still inflicted some wounds to them, and they had to lick them out before they could attack again. Furthermore, Aragorn and the hobbits left the Weathertop quite wuickly, and so the Nazgul caught them only near Bruinen ford.

2. I really don't remember this part, but maybe you are right - Frodo and Sam were so exhausted that only a *very* long period of sleep could have replenished their life force.

3. Perhaps a woman with a sword and shield was such an uncommon sight in ME that Theoden didn't even think of this (yes I know that Rohirim women were also good riders and warriors, but still they should not have been fighting in such a huge war).

4. Some divine energy, perhaps? Or maybe they have already met before? Or a dream of sorts told Faramir the truth about Aragorn?..

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I think it likely that they were so tired that when they finally had the burden of the Ring off their minds and beds under their backs that they just slept...

[Elvellyn]

About number 4: I think Faramir knew that only the king could have healed him.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Remember, he was like a throwback to the days of Numenor. It's quite possible that he had a bit of 'foresight' in a way, I think.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

3. Theoden knew Dernhelm, as he asked him/her to ride against Haradrim but didn't recognize her as Eowyn (always wear a helmet like a good biker)?

I don't know that Théoden would have personally met with all 6000 riders either in Harrowdale or at Meduseld, or during the ride down, and Éowyn doesn't seem to have ridden close to the King's group until the final charge, so it's likely the King would never have seen her.

What made this a gray area for me, though, was the thought that Elfhelm must have known who Dernhelm was and yet he said nothing about it in spite of knowing that both the King and Éomer would have been against it. I guess it was because Éowyn was also considered a leader of the land (they asked for her to take charge when the others rode off to fight Saruman) both because she was of the house of Éorl and also because of her quite strong personality (later she had just woken up and was still on her sick bed when she started ordering the King of Rohan around, telling him how he should treat Merry I really liked that part, too). Maybe Elfhelm figured he could just say "she told me to," if the King or Éomer said anything to him about it, and they would have accepted that.

[FrodoFriend]

I don't think anyone knew who Dernhelm was. I mean, Merry rode on a horse with her and didn't recognize her as Eowyn. She just did a really good job disguising herself, that's all. It's not so unbelievable.

[Dunadan]

Originally posted by jusu
1. Did the Black Riders fear Aragorn so much at Withertop (?) that they didn't attack again and take the ring from Frodo?
2. After distroying the ring Sam woke after a fortnight of sleep? Did Aragorn but them to deep sleep to heal like they have done nowadays to some badly hurt formula drivers?
3. Theoden knew Dernhelm, as he asked him/her to ride against Haradrim but didn't recognize her as Eowyn (always wear a helmet like a good biker)? And Theoden was not surprised to see Merri there?
4. How could Faramir know Aragorn and call him king when he woke up in the Houses of Healing. Had Frodo or Sam told him when they met or perhaps Gandalf? He had not seen Aragorn before?

There are probably some more but still this magnificient book is as tight and accurate as a fantasy book can be.

1) I've often thought that myself. In the book, it's left as something of a mystery: Aragorn himself doesn't understand why they withdrew. We're left with hints of a combination of any of:
- Gandalf had "drawn off" their strength when they attacked him on Weathertop a day or two before the hobbits arrived;
- they hadn't expected to be resisted;
- having stabbed Frodo with the morgul-knife, the Nazgul thought that they had plenty of time ("all the long leagues of Eriador") during which the Ringbearer would become a wraith;
- Nazgul have a fear of fire, so they fled from it when Aragorn attacked them;
- the Nazgul's main weapon was fear; it seems that Aragorn was unaffected.
- Nazgul are just a bit crap, really. Should've sent Shagrat and a bunch of trusty Uruks.

2) Yes

3) I'm not sure that it says in the book that Theoden knew Dernhelm. Can you supply a quote or pointer to the passage? Others have already commented on Elfhelm (maybe he and Eowyn had a bit of a thing going..)

4) IIRC, in the Houses of Healing, Aragorn goes into a kind of trance-like state, recalling the spirits of the people who have been affected by the Black Breath. If we're prepared to accept that, then it's only a small matter to believe that these people would perceive Aragorn as he truly is: King.

cheers

d.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Dunadan
1) I've often thought that myself. In the book, it's left as something of a mystery: Aragorn himself doesn't understand why they withdrew. We're left with hints of a combination of any of:
- they hadn't expected to be resisted;
- having stabbed Frodo with the morgul-knife, the Nazgul thought that they had plenty of time ("all the long leagues of Eriador") during which the Ringbearer would become a wraith;
- Nazgul have a fear of fire, so they fled from it when Aragorn attacked them

I think its all those reasons. Especially that they stabbed him with the knife knowing full well that it meant he would turn into a wraith eventually and then either come to them himself or come to mordor voluntarily all by himself and turn over the ring. Assuming the other members of the group would have let that happen. In fact what I wondered is was that the plan all along? Did Sauron actually say kill the hobbit and TAKE the ring or was the strategy to turn him so he could join the nazgul and return the ring himself? Would physically holding the One Ring have effected the Nazgul at all? Would they have gained more power?

[Dunadan]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Assuming the other members of the group would have let that happen. In fact what I wondered is was that the plan all along? Did Sauron actually say kill the hobbit and TAKE the ring or was the strategy to turn him so he could join the nazgul and return the ring himself? Would physically holding the One Ring have effected the Nazgul at all? Would they have gained more power?

Good point. There's clearly something about being a Ringbearer which makes you different. Maybe your fea is altered or something.

In LOTR, Frodo was at greatest risk when he wore the Ring: he was then partly "on the other side" and the wraiths would be able to "seize" him (presumably along with the Ring). I think we have to assume that this means they couldn't grab him if he didn't have the Ring on.

I think there was discussion on another thread that the Nazgul were entirely under Sauron's control and would immediately deliver the Ring to him. So, the strategy was to get him to put the Ring on, they'd grab hold of him and deliver him to Mordor, but Frodo had power to resist them (he took it off). The Morgul-knife was a back-up to force him into the "spirit world" or whatever it is.

cheers

d.

[Cirdan]

To 1: I always had a bit of a concern there until recently. There is a part of the story that describes the barrow sword that Frodo has as glowing red in the wraith world. It is possible that combined with the power of the ring and the attack by the Elfstone that the Nazgul felt matched, or at least uncertain. At the Battle of Pelennor they are described as being less inclined to combat and more of a psychological tool. Theoden is actually crushed when the nazgul's mount attacks Theoden's mount. The Witchking lost his only physical confrontation in the book.