The Half Elven

[Arien the Maia]

I have always wondered about the fate of Dior, Luthien and Beren's son. If he wasn't killed, would he have been given the choice that was granted to Earandil and his descendants...i.e. to chose to be joined with the firstborn or the followers?

[Keith K]

Dior had the blood of three races in his veins: Edain, Eldar and Maiar. He was born and raised in Ossiriand around F.A. 470. He married Nimloth of the Sindar, and they had three children: Elred, Elurin and Elwing. Dior became King of Doriath upon the murder of Thingol. When Beren and Luthien died he inherited the Nauglamir which contained the Silmaril that was taken from Morgoth. Shortly thereafter the sons of Feanor attacked Menegroth and murdered Dior, his wife and two of his children, Elwing being the only survivor of his family.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
I have always wondered about the fate of Dior, Luthien and Beren's son. If he wasn't killed, would he have been given the choice that was granted to Earandil and his descendants...i.e. to chose to be joined with the firstborn or the followers?

Because Dior was born after Beren and Luthien returned from the dead and Luthien was mortal then, that would make Dior mortal, so Dior would not have been given the choice.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Because Dior was born after Beren and Luthien returned from the dead and Luthien was mortal then, that would make Dior mortal, so Dior would not have been given the choice.

Thanks!

[Elfhelm]

Don't forget the gift that Finrod gave to Barahir. That eventually passed to Elwing and onward.

[Lord Manafirogh]

Aragorn could have been an elf if Elros had choosen do be an elf.
That would have changed the story alot! The though of it thats all.

[Ulmo]

Elros' line wouldn't have had nearly as many generations as they did with him choosing to be mortal. Aragorn would've never been born.

Additionally, Elros wouldn't have been granted Numenor, Aman wouldn't have been removed from the physical world, etc. etc. etc.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Dior, and his sons, Elured and Elurin were mortal. Elwing, Earendil and Elros were granted special permission to choose, as were Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Inderjit Sanghera
Dior, and his sons, Elured and Elurin were mortal. Elwing, Earendil and Elros were granted special permission to choose, as were Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen.

But why was Elwing given special permission? was it beacuse her and Earandil set foot upon Aman? If they wouldn't have done that would they have been mortal?

[Sween]

Originally posted by Ulmo
Elros' line wouldn't have had nearly as many generations as they did with him choosing to be mortal. Aragorn would've never been born.

Additionally, Elros wouldn't have been granted Numenor, Aman wouldn't have been removed from the physical world, etc. etc. etc.

it was granted to the three houses of the edain not elros!!!!!!!!

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
But why was Elwing given special permission? was it beacuse her and Earandil set foot upon Aman? If they wouldn't have done that would they have been mortal?

Yes, it was because she set foot in Aman and a special choice was granted to her, because of her fate. And I think she would've been mortal.

[Noahamir]

Even if Dior was completely mortal due to the fact that he was born after Luthien returned to Middle-Earth as a mortal, all three of his children would be Half-Elven anyway becuase Nimloth his wife was a Sindar Elf.

Anyway, I think Dior was half-elven myself and chose indirectly to be an Elf by accepting the Throne of Doriath.

[elfstone&evenstar]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
I have always wondered about the fate of Dior, Luthien and Beren's son. If he wasn't killed, would he have been given the choice that was granted to Earandil and his descendants...i.e. to chose to be joined with the firstborn or the followers?

I wandered The same thing

[Falagar]

But what about these quotes then?
From Appendix A, The Return of the King

There were three union of the Eldar and the Edain: Lúthien and Beren; Idril and Tuor; Arwen and Aragorn.

From the Shibboleth:

"Dior their son, it is said, spoke both tongues; his father's, and his mother's, the Sindarin of Doriath. For he said: 'I am the first of the Pereðil (Half-elven); but I am also the heir of King Elwë, the EluchÃ*l.'"

Also:
(The Problem of Ros)

"Dior Halfelven weds Lindis of Ossiriand."

Dior was a Peredhil...

[Sister Golden Hair]

Ok, from what I can gather from the HoMe, Dior was Halfelven in blood, but the choice of the Peredhil was not extended until the end of the First Age beginning with Earendil and Elwing, Elrond and Elros.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
But why was Elwing given special permission? was it beacuse her and Earandil set foot upon Aman? If they wouldn't have done that would they have been mortal?

There was some among the Valar about the couple's fate, too:

Mandos spoke...and said: 'Shall mortal Man step living upon the undying lands, and yet live?' But Ulmo said: 'For this he (Eärendil) was born into the world. And say unto me: whether is he Eärendil Tuor's son of the line of Hador, or the son of Idril, Turgon's daughter, of the Elven-house of Finwë?' And Mandos answered: 'Equally the Noldor, who went wilfully into exile, may not return hither.'

But when all was spoken, Manwë gave judgement, and he said: 'In this matter the power of doom is given to me. The peril that he ventured for love of the Two Kindreds shall not fall upon Eärendil, nor shall it fall upon Elwing his wife, who entered into peril for love of him; but they shall not walk again ever among Elves or Men in the Outer Lands. And this is my decree concerning them: to Eärendil and to Elwing, and to their sons, shall be given leave each to choose freely to which kindred their fates shall be joined, and under which kindred they shall be judged.'

Eärendil, being weary of the world, let Elwing choose their fate, and for Luthien's sake she chose the Elves; Eärendil therefore also chose to be joined to the Elves, although his heart was with "the kindred of Men and the people of his father."

[azalea]

This is the chapter I'm currently reading, and yes, I was confused. I wasn't sure what Dior was, and if it's true he was a mortal, then I find it fascinating that a mortal ended up ruling the kingdom of Thingol and Melian, elf and Maia. Very interesting. And from that, I then was confused as to Elrond's parentage -- which was the "elf half" and which was the "man half?" Or was it that each parent was half? I guess I'll just keep reading and find out what happens!

[Utumno]

Each parent was half-elven, even if you view Dior as a man (which I do not), since Elwing's mother Nimloth was an elf.

And then, Tuor + Idril = Earendil


If Dior had still been alive, who can say what Manwe would have decided for him. As far as I know, there is no indications?

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by The Lady of Ithilien
There was some among the Valar about the couple's fate, too:Eärendil, being weary of the world, let Elwing choose their fate, and for Luthien's sake she chose the Elves; Eärendil therefore also chose to be joined to the Elves, although his heart was with "the kindred of Men and the people of his father."

If Earandil hadn't been Noldorin on his elf side, what would his fate have been then? I thought that Manwe said that the Noldor couldn't return either? But Elwing wasn't Noldor, she just had some mortal blood in her. Maybe that's why they let her choose.