Gandalf vs Sauron?

[Andúril]

Captain Stern:
The only source I have is The Silmarillion and this is what it says in the 'Of the Enemies' chapter:

For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror.

So, it doesn't say that they Balrogs were "some of the most powerful" Maiar -- only that they were "dreadful"?

Come on! You must have something else -- oh wait, it looks like you don't...

[Rían]

Oh Andúril, you schnook (not quite the right word, but I really like the way it sounds) (BTW, said in a nice voice ) - are you just teasing Captain Stern, or are you really unaware of the 'formidable' aspect of 'dreadful'?

dreadful - inspiring great fear; terrible; formidable; as, a dreadful storm.

I think what Capt. Stern said is pretty reasonable; however, feel free to call my interpretation "forced and unreasonable" (as I have done to some of your posts in the past )

[Andúril]

RÃ*an:
Oh Andúril, you schnook (not quite the right word, but I really like the way it sounds) (BTW, said in a nice voice ) - are you just teasing Captain Stern, or are you really unaware of the 'formidable' aspect of 'dreadful'?

Neither, ma'am.

More:
*snip*

I think what Capt. Stern said is pretty reasonable; however, feel free to call my interpretation "forced and unreasonable" (as I have done to some of your posts in the past )

Firstly, I do not doubt that the Balrogs were formidable foes. Most (if not all) of the Elf Lords who fought Balrogs died as a result. But whether "dreadful" means "formidable" in that passage is open to interpretation. Manwe was formidable too, but he is not described specifically as dreadful (to my knowledge). Thus I would assume your first definition of "dreadful" -- "inspiring great fear" -- to be more correct, or perhaps even "promoting dread among foes" would suffice.

Secondly, but drawing from the first point, the jump from "inspiring great fear" to "some of the most powerful Maiar" is, in my opinion, too large. I was expecting Captain Stern to provide an explicit reference to support his claim. Implicit references carry less weight in arguments of this type.

Now, whether Balrogs "inspired great fear" because they were formidable is another issue. But even if they were formidable, that by no means implies that they were "some of the most powerful Maiar".

In fact, even if "some of the most powerful" was a necessary implication of "formidable", we must remember that the context of the passage limits comparison to those Maiar aligned with Melkor.

[Rían]

OK (and I'd really hate to meet up with one in a dark alley .... )

[Andúril]

Same here, if I didn't have Tulkas as a bodyguard.

[Rían]

or Turin - did you see Cirdan's comment on the "which character do you feel safest with" thread?

by Cirdan on that other thread
I going to have to go with Turin since anything bad that may happen will probably happen to him: like a human lightning rod.

[Captain Stern]

I'm afraid that's all I have at my immediate disposal...

I do recall that in a few old entmoot threads certain passages were dredged up from HOME that went some way to establish the power of the Balrogs... but alas, I'm not gonna go foraging in the mire of the entmoot archives... not just yet anyway

Where is Nolendil and co when u need em!

[Andúril]

Captain Stern:
I'm afraid that's all I have at my immediate disposal...

I do recall that in a few old entmoot threads certain passages were dredged up from HOME that went some way to establish the power of the Balrogs... but alas, I'm not gonna go foraging in the mire of the entmoot archives... not just yet anyway

Aha! In approximately 20 days my CHoMe:Part 1 and other Tolkien literature will arrive, and then.....

....and then it will sit on my shelf, just like that 7000 page Bible dictionary I bought two months ago, which I haven't had the time to peruse.

More:
Where is Nolendil and co when u need em!

You know, I was thinking the same thing.