Immortal?

Firekitten2006 · 01-03-2003, 09:31 PM

ok
Elves are immortal right? So then they cant be killed? My friend is askin me these questions and now I'm all confused! lol

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-03-2003, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Firekitten2006
ok
Elves are immortal right? So then they cant be killed? My friend is askin me these questions and now I'm all confused! lol

The Elves did not die naturally. They knew no sickness or disease, but they could not withstand violent asaults upon their structures. In other words, they could be killed, but in dying, they are gathered to the Halls of Mandos, and may return to life re-embodied, but may not return to middle-earth.

***azalea*** · 01-03-2003, 10:04 PM

What's the explanation for the faces of elves being in the Dead Marshes? If they go to Mandos when killed, wouldn't they be absent from there? Or are the faces simply "shadows" or something? It seems as if the faces were all kind of like ghosts.

WallRocker · 01-03-2003, 11:07 PM

I remember reading somewhere in the LotR triology that Elves can only be killed by in battle, or by giref

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-03-2003, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by azalea
What's the explanation for the faces of elves being in the Dead Marshes? If they go to Mandos when killed, wouldn't they be absent from there? Or are the faces simply "shadows" or something? It seems as if the faces were all kind of like ghosts.

The Elves did not have to answer the summons of Mandos, but they would become houseless spirits and roaming.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-04-2003, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by WallRocker
I remember reading somewhere in the LotR triology that Elves can only be killed by in battle, or by giref

From the Silmarillion. Houghton Mifflin edition. 1977.

Quote:

For the Elves die not till the world dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief (and to both these seeming deaths they are subject); neither does age subdue their strength., unless one grows weary of ten thousand centuries, and dying they are gathered to the Halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence they may in time return.

Millane · 01-04-2003, 03:19 AM

wasnt the faces in the dead marshes just some shadow of the soldiers that died at the Battle of Dagorlad... didnt gollum try and touch em hahahahaha

cassiopeia · 01-04-2003, 04:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
In other words, they could be killed, but in dying, they are gathered to the Halls of Mandos, and may return to life re-embodied, but may not return to middle-earth.

Can they only return to Aman?

DraztiK · 01-04-2003, 12:41 PM

normally, they can only return to the Undying Lands (Aman and Tol Eressëa) unless they have a 'mission' (like Glorfindel)

Some Elves are not permitted to be re-embodied (like Fëanor)

Elf Girl · 01-04-2003, 01:04 PM

What was Glorfindel's "mission"?

DraztiK · 01-04-2003, 01:12 PM

to help Gandalf, to Save the Ring-Bearer, to prophecise the killing of the Witch-King,...

A lot of things, wich he didn't know himself before they actually happened

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-04-2003, 01:24 PM

Glorfindel is the only Elf that we know of to return to Middle-earth after death.

Feanor was the only Elf that was never permitted to leave the Halls of Mandos. All others that never came back stayed in Mandos by choice.

***azalea*** · 01-04-2003, 03:44 PM

A little OT, but somewhat relevant: I just started reading Of Beren and Luthien last night, and it says in a dream a wraith of Gorlim visited Beren to tell him to warn his father. So I guess that would be an "elf ghost," which I guess would be the ones who chose not to go to Mandos, or hadn't gone yet.

Artanis · 01-04-2003, 03:48 PM

Gorlim was a Man, wasn't he? **still OT**

***azalea*** · 01-04-2003, 04:00 PM

Yes, you're right. Never mind then. But it still means that he hadn't yet gone wherever men go after death, so I guess it's the same type of thing.

BeardofPants · 01-04-2003, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Glorfindel is the only Elf that we know of to return to Middle-earth after death.

Is there any textual evidence in HoME to back this up? That Tolkien didn't just recycle the name?

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-04-2003, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Is there any textual evidence in HoME to back this up? That Tolkien didn't just recycle the name?

You mean regarding the possiblity of there being two Glorfindels, or that they are one and the same? Tolkien talks about re-useing Elven names, and says something like Glorfindel was such a striking name, that it would only be used once, so that is somewhat of a verification that there was only one Glorfindel throughout the ages. It is in the HoMe somewhere, can't remember which book. Nolendil would know. MM has written about this also, at Suite101.

WallRocker · 01-04-2003, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
From the Silmarillion. Houghton Mifflin edition. 1977.

Right. But I think Gandalf says it somewhere else in LotR as well.Of course, I could be wrong(it wouldn't be the first time

Falagar · 01-04-2003, 07:46 PM

I remember hearing anything about a struck-out chapter or something called "Glorfindel tells of his ancestery(sp?) in Gondolin".

And I also read this article which convinced me (it has some mistakes, but alltogether it's a good read).

BeardofPants · 01-04-2003, 08:00 PM

Thanks Falagar, I'll certainly keep an eye out when I'm reading HoME VI. (Shouldn't be too far off, I will be starting on V soon.)

01-03-2003, 09:31 PM	#1
Firekitten2006 Elven Warrior Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: the US of A! But I wish i was in austraila, never been, just think it would be a fun place to live :) Posts: 372	Immortal? ok Elves are immortal right? So then they cant be killed? My friend is askin me these questions and now I'm all confused! lol __________________ I'm Baaaack!!

01-03-2003, 11:07 PM	#4
WallRocker Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: At the computer... Posts: 376	I remember reading somewhere in the LotR triology that Elves can only be killed by in battle, or by giref __________________ Do one thing every day that scares you ~Anonymous~ <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><<>< <>< <>< <>< I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America And to the Republic for which it stands One nation UNDER GOD with liberty and justice for all

01-04-2003, 03:19 AM	#7
Millane The Dude Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: at the altar of my ego Posts: 1,685	wasnt the faces in the dead marshes just some shadow of the soldiers that died at the Battle of Dagorlad... didnt gollum try and touch em hahahahaha __________________ Ill heal your wounds, ill set you free,

01-04-2003, 12:41 PM	#9
DraztiK Enting Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Mol, Belgium Posts: 94	normally, they can only return to the Undying Lands (Aman and Tol Eressëa) unless they have a 'mission' (like Glorfindel) Some Elves are not permitted to be re-embodied (like Fëanor) __________________ The name's DraztiK, but those whose name isn't totally blasted into Oblivion yet may call me DraZ... * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Our Armies in England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales Our Brothers in Belgium, Holland and France will not fail. Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Italy, Switzerland, Austria, back to the Glory of Germany! ~Manowar - Blood of the Kings~

01-04-2003, 01:04 PM	#10
Elf Girl Lurker Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Lothlórien Posts: 3,419	What was Glorfindel's "mission"? __________________ There's antimony, arsenic, aluminum, selenium...

01-03-2003, 10:04 PM	#3
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	What's the explanation for the faces of elves being in the Dead Marshes? If they go to Mandos when killed, wouldn't they be absent from there? Or are the faces simply "shadows" or something? It seems as if the faces were all kind of like ghosts.

01-04-2003, 01:12 PM	#11
DraztiK Enting Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Mol, Belgium Posts: 94	to help Gandalf, to Save the Ring-Bearer, to prophecise the killing of the Witch-King,... A lot of things, wich he didn't know himself before they actually happened __________________ The name's DraztiK, but those whose name isn't totally blasted into Oblivion yet may call me DraZ... * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Our Armies in England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales Our Brothers in Belgium, Holland and France will not fail. Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Italy, Switzerland, Austria, back to the Glory of Germany! ~Manowar - Blood of the Kings~

01-04-2003, 01:24 PM	#12
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	Glorfindel is the only Elf that we know of to return to Middle-earth after death. Feanor was the only Elf that was never permitted to leave the Halls of Mandos. All others that never came back stayed in Mandos by choice. __________________ "Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

01-04-2003, 03:44 PM	#13
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	A little OT, but somewhat relevant: I just started reading Of Beren and Luthien last night, and it says in a dream a wraith of Gorlim visited Beren to tell him to warn his father. So I guess that would be an "elf ghost," which I guess would be the ones who chose not to go to Mandos, or hadn't gone yet.

01-04-2003, 03:48 PM	#14
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7 Posts: 4,285	Gorlim was a Man, wasn't he? still OT __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die.

01-04-2003, 04:00 PM	#15
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	Yes, you're right. Never mind then. But it still means that he hadn't yet gone wherever men go after death, so I guess it's the same type of thing.

01-04-2003, 07:46 PM	#19
Falagar Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 2,870	I remember hearing anything about a struck-out chapter or something called "Glorfindel tells of his ancestery(sp?) in Gondolin". And I also read this article which convinced me (it has some mistakes, but alltogether it's a good read). __________________ Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle.

01-04-2003, 08:00 PM	#20
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Thanks Falagar, I'll certainly keep an eye out when I'm reading HoME VI. (Shouldn't be too far off, I will be starting on V soon.) __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

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