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Old 10-22-2002, 05:54 PM   #1
Maedhros
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Finarfin's Choice
Do you think that Finarfin made the right choice when he decided to return to Valinor?
Quote:
But in that hour Finarfin forsook the march, and turned back, being filled with grief, and with bitterness against the House of Fëanor, because of his kinship with Olwë of Alqualondë; and many of his people went with him, retracing their steps in sorrow, until they beheld once more the far beam of the Mindon upon Túna still shining in the night, and so came at last to Valinor.
Didn't he as a noldorian prince, owed to his people to guide them, in this difficult path in ME where all the perils lay ahead for them. Or did his loyalties lay first with the Valar.
Remember, that the Kinslaying ocurred in Alqualondë, and Finarfin retraced his steps in the Wastes of Araman, which is north of Alqualondë; he could have returned after the Kinslaying, yet it took the Doom of Mandos to turn him back.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 10-22-2002, 09:39 PM   #2
Lefty Scaevola
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I can well understand a duty to lead what of his people he can away from an expedition begun in theft and murder.
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Old 10-22-2002, 09:45 PM   #3
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Re: Finarfin's Choice
Quote:
Originally posted by Maedhros
Do you think that Finarfin made the right choice when he decided to return to Valinor?

Didn't he as a noldorian prince, owed to his people to guide them, in this difficult path in ME where all the perils lay ahead for them. Or did his loyalties lay first with the Valar.
Remember, that the Kinslaying ocurred in Alqualondë, and Finarfin retraced his steps in the Wastes of Araman, which is north of Alqualondë; he could have returned after the Kinslaying, yet it took the Doom of Mandos to turn him back.
That's a tough one. Let's just say that it was the right choice for him. I think that he was devistated after the Kinslaying because he had spent so much time among the Teleri and had married one and had four children with her. Unfinished Tales says that he tried to stay aloof of the strife between his brothers and often sought peace among the Teleri. I think what urged him on in the journey was the fact that his children were all going and he knew they would not turn back. When the Doom of Mandos was spoken, that was more or less the last straw for him and he had made up his mind to return.
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Old 10-22-2002, 10:14 PM   #4
Maedhros
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I can well understand a duty to lead what of his people he can away from an expedition begun in theft and murder.
Yet it was an expedition that ended up being the best thing that could have happened to ME, according to Myths Transformed.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 10-23-2002, 02:11 AM   #5
Lief Erikson
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Time passes, and things change. Let's say America has an option of giving six billion dollars of foreign aid to some remote country that was impoverished. It might decide to send the money now. If it sends it now though, the money might all be squandered because of lack of proper management. Then on the other hand, you can wait two years and then send it, when they have better management. Then they can use the money to bring themselves out of their misery. What is right at one time can be wrong at another, and visa versa.
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Old 10-23-2002, 06:57 PM   #6
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I don't think there is any way in which it was not the right choice. He realized how wrong the Rebellion was, he repented. Two thumbs up. His sons and people had their own choices to make, and maybe many who repented when Finarfin did would not have had he not.
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Old 10-23-2002, 10:23 PM   #7
Maedhros
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I don't think there is any way in which it was not the right choice. He realized how wrong the Rebellion was, he repented.
Shouldn't he have turned back after the Kinslaying at Alqualondë? Why did he have to wait for the Doom of Mandos?
Quote:
and maybe many who repented when Finarfin did would not have had he not.
There were some Noldor that didn't take the road, why would they need for Mandos to speak the Doom of the Noldor to turned them back?
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 10-25-2002, 07:41 PM   #8
The Lady of Ithilien
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Quote:
Do you think that Finarfin made the right choice when he decided to return to Valinor?
Yep. Also what Nolendil said.
Quote:
Didn't he as a noldorian prince, owed to his people to guide them, in this difficult path in ME where all the perils lay ahead for them. Or did his loyalties lay first with the Valar.
Well, the easy, quick answer would be, of course his first loyalty was to the Valar, and there he had the example of Tulkas and, I think, Orome, who weren't fooled by Melkor when he returned but said nothing as "those who defend authority from rebellion must themselves not rebel." (quote is from memory)

The longer answer would involve putting the thing back on Finwe's shoulders, who put his sons and especially Feanor ahead of his people. Finarfin, in that case, was only following a path his father had laid down.
Quote:
Finarfin retraced his steps in the Wastes of Araman, which is north of Alqualondë; he could have returned after the Kinslaying, yet it took the Doom of Mandos to turn him back.
Perhaps it was a two-step process, with the first of eventually three episodes of Kin-Slaying weakening his resolve to go forward, and Mandos' doom/curse providing the final incentive.
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Old 10-25-2002, 07:47 PM   #9
Maedhros
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Perhaps it was a two-step process, with the first of eventually three episodes of Kin-Slaying weakening his resolve to go forward, and Mandos' doom/curse providing the final incentive.
Perhaps, he was afraid of the Valar. Why did he need the warning of Námo to turn back, wasn't the Kinslaying enough?
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 10-25-2002, 07:59 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Maedhros
Perhaps, he was afraid of the Valar. Why did he need the warning of Námo to turn back, wasn't the Kinslaying enough?
You know, I really think a lot of it had to do with his kids.
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Old 10-25-2002, 08:00 PM   #11
Maedhros
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Yet, he turned back.
__________________
“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 10-25-2002, 08:13 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Maedhros
Yet, he turned back.
Right, but I think for him it was a matter of choosing the less of two evils. I think he was distraught at the Kinslaying, but figured he would continue with his children. When the Doom of Mandos was spoken I think it was more then he could bear. Now it was a matter of choice, and I wonder if he tried to talk his kids into returning with him, but now it was [what's best to do? Continue on this road that has been doomed and be fenced out of Valinor forever, or to return to Valinor where my wife is and redeem myself to the Valar?] I think we have to remember too that not all that went into Exile followed Feanor, nor was their goal to recover the Silmarils. I don't think it was in Finarfin's heart to go in the first place, but he went for his kids.
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Old 10-26-2002, 12:36 AM   #13
Maedhros
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I think we have to remember too that not all that went into Exile followed Feanor, nor was their goal to recover the Silmarils. I don't think it was in Finarfin's heart to go in the first place, but he went for his kids.
Yes, but he didn't went there to ME.
Why can't anyone think of the children?
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 10-26-2002, 02:00 AM   #14
Ñólendil
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Shouldn't he have turned back after the Kinslaying at Alqualondë? Why did he have to wait for the Doom of Mandos?
Because he wasn't perfect, I guess. His soul needed something like the Prophesy of the North to turn him back. He needed to be shaken up, maybe.

Quote:
There were some Noldor that didn't take the road, why would they need for Mandos to speak the Doom of the Noldor to turned them back?
I was only speaking of those in Fingolfin's Host who returned to Tirion with Finarfin. I think many of these that went back to Tirion did so not only out of guilt, repentence, realize reverevence for the Valar, love for Tirion, but also for love of Finarfin. Finarfin may have saved many lived by returning to Tirion.

Also, Finrod, Angrod, Aegnor and Galadriel were hardly children. They had the right to choose for themselves. Finarfin could not have forced them to go one way or another. And I am sure the matter was discussed. I cannot imagine Finarfin picking up his bags and going hope without a word to any of his family (and there were twenty-one other family members present, counting the Feanorians).
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Last edited by Ñólendil : 10-26-2002 at 02:04 AM.
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Old 10-27-2002, 09:37 AM   #15
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why would they need for Mandos to speak the Doom of the Noldor to turned them back?
It's important to keep in mind that when Namo/Mandos spoke, it wasn't just words, but the path in which reality would then inevitably move. Thus the Valar gave Feanor and his followers every possible chance before setting in motion the Prophecy of the North.
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"...slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief; and your houseless spiritis shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you....The Valar have spoken
Little wonder that many quailed then, and Finarfin chose to turn back, "being filled with grief, and with bitterness against the House of Feanor..."

Little wonder, too, that many kept on, given Feanor's mood that day. Already when they left Tirion he had addressed the Elder King himself in the second person familiar and had even dared to bid His messenger inform Him that maybe Eru had set within Feanor "a fire greater than thou knowest." And the messenger then had bowed as one full answered and departed.

And, indeed, maybe Eru had. As Manwe said when he heard report of Feanor's answer:
Quote:
...Dear-bought shall those songs be accounted, and yet shall be well-bought. For the price could be no other. Thus even as Eru spoke to us beauty not before conceived be brought into Ea, and evil yet be good to have been.
In which case, Finarfin's return was also preordained by Eru, perhaps so that the rest of the Noldor would still have a leader down through to The End.
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Old 10-27-2002, 03:14 PM   #16
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Re: Finarfin's Choice
Quote:
Originally posted by Maedhros
Do you think that Finarfin made the right choice when he decided to return to Valinor?

Didn't he as a noldorian prince, owed to his people to guide them, in this difficult path in ME where all the perils lay ahead for them. Or did his loyalties lay first with the Valar.
Remember, that the Kinslaying ocurred in Alqualondë, and Finarfin retraced his steps in the Wastes of Araman, which is north of Alqualondë; he could have returned after the Kinslaying, yet it took the Doom of Mandos to turn him back.
I think he did make the right choice to lead at least a part of his people back home. He probably wasn't that happy (to put it mildly) after the kinslaying but to hear Mandos laying out such a bleak future for his race probably was the last straw. In returning he saved the part of the Noldor that followed him from a life of war and suffering.
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Old 11-08-2002, 08:18 AM   #17
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Ñolendil have it right, remember that not all the Ñoldor desired to go, especially after the words of Mandos. He did not return alone. By returning he most probably convinced many undecided to do the same (thus sparing them the dark days ahead). For those that still would go, Fingolfin and Finrod were valiant and capable leaders.

But why would he wait for the words of Mandos to return?

I believe that he was divided. Part of him considered his duty to go. Loyalty to his people and brothers took precedence over his desire to stay (and as Sister Golden Hair said, he probably didn’t desire to be separated from his children, too). But when Mandos spoke his words he was released of what he saw as his obligation. Now not to go would be the only “morally right” choice (otherwise he would be acting in open rebellion against the appointed representatives of Eru).
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