hero excahnge

[Mordomin]

Originally posted by Anduril An event? A series of events? How can you conclude from this:
"In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Iluvatar..."
...that his friendship was an event (or events) and not a classification of his alliance?

I did not make my conclusion from that line at all. You have completely and grossly misquoted me. What I said was:

Originally posted by Mordomin Since Olorin's going among all the Children of Iluvatar was an event (actually, a series of events), not a part of his character description, we must conclude that this happened, as Anduril says (and Radagast the Brown concurs) in FA, or the First Age. (emphasis added)

How do we know that Olorin went among Men?

From the Valaquenta In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Iluvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imaginations of darkness. (emphasis added)

Since none of the Ainur has the ability to speak to mortals from a distance, Olorin must have walked among them to speak to them so that they could 'listen to him'. We also have the example of how Olorin spoke to the Elves (the other Children of Iluvatar) in the preceding sentence: "he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them". Therefore, since Olorin spoke to all the Children of Iluvatar, and walking among them was his only means to speak to them, he must have walked among Men. 'Walking among the Children of Iluvatar' is an event, not a description of character. And, as you've already stipulated:

Originally posted by Anduril When it comes to events then sure, the Valaquenta speaks of the FA.

Therefore, Olorin walked among Men in the First Age. This must have taken place in Middle-Earth, because that is the only place that Men were located in the First Age.

We also have Christopher Tolkien's statement that the Valaquenta is an account of the Elder Days (which I quoted in my previous post). Since the description of Olorin we've been discussion occurs in the Valaquenta, it is describing his activities during the Elder Days, or First Age.

[Andúril]

Mordomin:
You have completely and grossly misquoted me

Hmmm.....I seemed to have completely missed that. *Beats self with straw man* Apologies.

Valaquenta:
In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Iluvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imaginations of darkness.

Having accepted that events depicted in the Valaquenta are to be understood as occuring in the First Age, I must conclude that Olorin existed at times in Middle-earth.

Now, if only you had posted the rest of the passage sooner? It's a bit difficult arguing about something without the text in front of you.

[Mordomin]

Originally posted by Anduril
Now, if only you had posted the rest of the passage sooner? It's a bit difficult arguing about something without the text in front of you.

My apologies to you; I think you mentioned earlier that you did not have the text available. My bad.

[afro-elf]

In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Iluvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imaginations of darkness.

The later days Hmmmm......

[BeardofPants]

Right, now that you little boys have stopped squabbling...

[Elbereth]

a) Luthien
b) Gandalf