12-28-2005, 08:55 PM | #61 |
of the House of Fëanor
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I'm sure you'd LOVE that! Yeah, right. Absolutely not. There is nothing to "discuss", Lief. I have made my stance perfectly clear.
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12-28-2005, 09:26 PM | #62 | ||
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Are they just saying that the Jews were NOT killed, or the numbers were exaggerated, or it's a conspiracy, or what? I don't see how it could be denied, but I'm always amazed by the capacity of humans to delude themselves And I appreciate your sensitivity to Radagast. It's like if you're talking about rape and there's a rape victim in your group - I think it's kind to defer to them. You're not saying that they are better than the others, or not equal - you're acknowledging the simple fact that they have a personal tie to that particular horror in a way that others don't.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 12-28-2005 at 09:50 PM. |
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12-29-2005, 10:25 AM | #63 | |||
Advocatus Diaboli
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the fact that israel became a jewish state is intwined with the holocaust... if the holocaust had not happened, it is difficult to say whether israel would ever have been established... this is why people who oppose israel deny it
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12-29-2005, 01:04 PM | #64 |
Elf Lord
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My grandfather fought in World War 2 and my grandmother worked in a plant for the soldiers. I'm sure World War 2 has impacted others of us as well. However, Radagast is representative of Jews and Israel here on Entmoot. As you point out, Brownjenkins, the country Radagast lives in only exists because of the Holocaust. Radagast's family was personally strongly impacted by the Holocaust- he is a descendent of some who were killed in the Holocaust. He is also our resident Jew, a person whose entire race was devastated in the Holocaust. For all these reasons, I think that his opinion is in a somewhat different category from ours. None of us have been shaped by the Holocaust as he has, so I have a higher respect for his opinion about whether or not this thread should be closed than for my own.
I already was well aware that the Holocaust was not a strictly Jewish affair, though some of your numbers may be somewhat off. I've heard estimates of the number of Jewish dead that put the number at possibly 12 million. In my honors history class, I was taught that the number was 12 million. 6 million is only the number that we can be sure died, so we tend to go with that . Anyhow, Brownjenkins, I'm sorry but I'm going to maintain my stance on this. For the reasons I listed in paragraph 1, I'm leaving this up to Radagast. Please don't try to get the moderators to close this thread on your own, either. I would fight such an action as hard as I am able, and I don't think any of us want to fight.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 12-29-2005 at 01:05 PM. |
12-29-2005, 02:03 PM | #65 |
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i didn't say anything about closing a thread... i think everything should be open to discussion
i just wanted to point out the wider focus... as my numbers show, many were exterminated purely because they were homosexual... would a homosexual's opinion also hold greater weight because of this? or is it a numbers game? and what about the germans? while many were a part of the very genocide itself, all had to share the blame after the fact just because they were german... even if they had little or no involvement in the holocaust itself... it certainly shaped many of their lives post-ww2 i prefer to think on these kind of events as human tragedies... something we all have a stake in and can all share both the grief and the blame in if we do not want to repeat the past we must think more about humanity as a whole and less about the societal segmentations we create and perpetuate (be they religious or national) that allow leaders to demonize certain segments of a population and make these very genocides possible
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12-29-2005, 02:20 PM | #66 | |||
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Yes, there is the aspect that this is a human tragedy as well as a Jewish tragedy. However, the tragedy impacted the Jews more than any other humans, and thus they deserve more of a voice. If my mother had been killed in the Holocaust, the Holocaust would have impacted me more closely than it did you. You could not say, "This is a human tragedy; my voice is equal to yours." No, because I would be an insider, one who actually was touched by this horror in a much more tangible way, my voice about it would carry more authority than yours. If you said, "We should forgive the Germans," it would carry less weight than it would if I said it. This is simply obvious, in my view . Oh well . Quote:
That said, I do see strong validity to your claim that we should all grieve when some grieve and should consider ourselves as all having a stake in what happens. We should care about humanity as a whole rather than merely ourselves. This perspective should not undermine the personal horror that the Jewish people experienced, however. It should not lead you to say, "You lost your father, but I experienced this tragedy with you because when you lost your family, everyone was impacted. Therefore, my voice is equal to yours, whether we are forgiving or condemning the wrongdoers." I think that it is right and just that Saddam Hussein be put on trial by his own people. They were the ones impacted, not us, and therefore they have the most right to decide. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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12-29-2005, 02:43 PM | #67 | |
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one of the major motivators behind the rise of the nazis post-ww1 was the excessive blame and burdens placed upon the german society as a whole... giving one side "more of a voice" gives the other side "less of a voice" by definition and leads to the very resentment between one societal group and another that germinates the seeds of this kind of violence you can't just look at one side of the picture and hope to learn from the past
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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12-29-2005, 03:09 PM | #68 | |
of the House of Fëanor
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Last edited by Lotesse : 12-29-2005 at 03:31 PM. |
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12-29-2005, 03:29 PM | #69 |
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What always makes me angry is the thorough denial of the Soviet Genocide of the 30's. Several million people was sent off to Siberia. But no one cares. No one demonstrates against Communist oppression. Especially in Sweden (IMO, the last Soviet state, even though some have called Norway that).
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12-29-2005, 03:49 PM | #70 | |
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However demonstrations against genocide are taking place. Not surprisingly, these demonstrations deal with more recent happenings. Demonstrations I think have taken place at least here in Stockholm not too long ago include Bosniaks raising their voices against the Serbs (remember the Srebrenica genocide in '95) and Shiites opposing Saddam Hussein's rule (Saddam who is currently on trial for the deaths of more than 140 Shiites).
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12-29-2005, 04:00 PM | #71 | |||
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This is all getting really, really off-topic, though. Let's just leave the "equality of voice" issue aside, if you please? You can respond once more if you want about it, in closing, but I don't want this thread to get bogged down in off-topic discussion.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 12-29-2005 at 04:03 PM. |
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12-29-2005, 04:49 PM | #72 | |
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Let's remember that Germany suffered a massive defeat. The Nuremberg trials were held. The West German goverment did its very best to uncover the crimes of the Nazis and the Germans themselves felt awfully responsible and regretful. This is unique in history - never before has a nation so candidly spoken about their wrongdoings. So it's not strange that Hitler and his crimes are more known and infamous than the crimes of Stalin or any other dictator - Germany itself has been obliged to see and tell the world about its dark history. Stalin's USSR was never defeated in war and Russia of today has never been forced to deal with their past crimes.
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12-29-2005, 05:00 PM | #73 | |
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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12-30-2005, 03:51 AM | #74 | |
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Let's face it, Sweden is a Socialist state. The Government, the media (that includes papers, tv and radio), the union are well in the hands of leftwing extremists. And that's why no one in the so-called establishment thinks it's important to remember any Communist opression and atrocities. Because it's "ancient" history in their opinion. |
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12-30-2005, 02:52 PM | #75 |
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We need Captain Stern .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
12-30-2005, 05:44 PM | #76 | |
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What exactly do you want from this topic? This topic has not broken any of the rules of entmoot, so there is no need to close it. I just have no idea what there is to discuss. further edit: And since even Captain Stern is in agreement with us that the Holocaust existed, what is the point? It isn't like we have members here arguing that it didn't exist. Captain Stern is just the one who has presented some arguments against its existence. And people like him less for it. You want him to do more of that? How does it affect us if some crazy Islamic groups deny the Holocaust? Isn't that to be expected? How can discussing it here help solve that?
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12-30-2005, 08:25 PM | #77 | |
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EDIT/ UPDATE I should make it clear once again that my oppinion is that everything should be open to question and that it's important to always explore the viewpoint of those opposed to you, instead of denouncing such oppions out of hand, thus letting ignorance reign.
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Then hate overcame Fëanor's fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying 'Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!' And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all dwellers in Eä. Last edited by Captain Stern : 12-30-2005 at 08:40 PM. |
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12-30-2005, 08:26 PM | #78 | ||
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 12-30-2005 at 08:30 PM. |
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12-30-2005, 08:39 PM | #79 | |
Elf Lord
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I hope that you won't allow yourself to be at all embittered by this. I'm sorry this happened. I'm sorry you've had a negative experience here, and if you're unwilling to continue, as I said above, I completely understand. I would be sorry, but I'd understand.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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12-30-2005, 08:47 PM | #80 |
Elven Warrior
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Of course I'm not directly comparing people like lotesse and hobbit to ordinary germans who helped facilitate the holocaust. There are many shades of grey. Yet, in my oppinion, they have sought to incite others to condemn those who disagree with them, which is exactly what leaders of mobs do.
My point was that it's people who believe in absloutes (however good their intentions), NEVER those who continually seek to understand both sides of an argument, who cause tragedies such as the holocaust to happen,.
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Then hate overcame Fëanor's fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying 'Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!' And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all dwellers in Eä. Last edited by Captain Stern : 12-30-2005 at 08:50 PM. |
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