11-07-2003, 05:32 PM | #101 | |
Lady of Letters
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Autocracies, on the other hand, often have many of the characteristics you suggest monarchies have - primarily lack of democracy. I wonder if that was the model of monarchy you were thinking of?
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And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool. Last edited by sun-star : 11-08-2003 at 05:45 AM. |
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11-09-2003, 12:14 PM | #102 | |
Elf Lord
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11-09-2003, 04:30 PM | #103 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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11-09-2003, 06:56 PM | #104 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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You have a good memory! I bet it's been a few years since you read that book, right?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
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11-09-2003, 10:59 PM | #105 | |
Elven Warrior
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JD... wow... I don’t mean to be unkind, but there’s just no way to address all the inaccuracies and misconceptions in your last post. I won’t even attempt it, so I’ll just give you a list of some good books for you to read at your leisure:
Southern, R.W. The Making of the Middle Ages. New York, 1953. Ganshof, F. The Middle Ages; A History of International Relations. New York, 1970. Ault, W.O. The Self-Directing Activities of Village Communities in Medieval England. Boston, 1952. Bloch, Marc. Feudal Society. Annales d’histoire economique et sociale, 1934. Homans, G.C. English villagers of the Thirteenth Century. New York, 1960. White, Lynn, Jr. Medieval Technology and Social Change. Oxford, 1962. Coulton, G. Medieval Village, Manor and Monastery. New York 1960. There is an excellent essay on-line that would clear up many of your misconceptions about medieval manoralism by Paul Vinogradoff, Villainage in England: Essays in English Mediaeval History. A small excerpt for those of you who don’t want to wade through the whole essay: Quote:
Dave
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Miserable mourning is never the equal of noble action; nor are rest and relaxation as good as war, trouble and action. --Bertran de Born, Knight and Troubadour Castle Duncan Last edited by Guillaume le Maréchal : 11-09-2003 at 11:03 PM. |
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11-09-2003, 11:49 PM | #106 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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I had studied the Plantagent line very deeply. That is where they TRUE monarchy reigned. It got watered down after King John was forced to agree to the Magna Carta.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 11-09-2003 at 11:54 PM. |
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11-10-2003, 12:53 AM | #107 |
Elven Warrior
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I’ll admit if you are looking for “rights” during the medieval period, as in our modern notion of rights, it would be a fruitless search. On the other hand, it would be especially beneficial to take a look at Ault’s book that I listed above. What the “common man” and woman had in the manorial system was a large measure of security, provided not so much by the strong arm of a noble, but by a community of mutual support, in return for a life of hard work. This might appear a rather bleak picture, and in many ways it was. Medieval society was not filled with all our modern technologies and niceties, especially in the face of war, famine and plague.
However, these communities were able to thrive despite these things mainly because of their communal character. There is much we moderns could learn from this model, especially in light of atomic individualism and personal isolationism. Neighbors in the manorial system knew each other thoroughly and depended on each other in a spirit of cooperation hardly fathomable in our self-interested culture of the “me.” As far as time off goes, medieval villagers had more days off per year than I do with my current job. True democracy was the norm at village by-laws, and villagers were for the most part able to direct their own activities and the regulation of their obligations. Examples of jurisprudence from the period indicates that villains possessed surprisingly extensive “rights” in regard to holding land, defending his or her claims to land, and the ability to pass on holdings to children. Villagers loved, courted, and got married with a much higher degree of freedom than those of noble blood. They were given recourse to defend themselves in courts of law when they were slandered or injured, and even had a measure of recourse concerning the manor lord and his staff. The manorial system was at its best when the manor lord was actually present on a regular basis, for his success was directly dependent on the success of those who worked his lands. Toward the waning of the medieval period, when landed nobles increasingly lived apart from the lands they held, we see the manorial system degenerating into abusive relationships. In regards to the emergence of sixteenth century capitalist farming in England, R.H. Tawney observed: “Villeinage ceases but the Poor Laws begin.” But don’t take my word for it. Those books are great! --Dave
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Miserable mourning is never the equal of noble action; nor are rest and relaxation as good as war, trouble and action. --Bertran de Born, Knight and Troubadour Castle Duncan |
11-10-2003, 01:04 AM | #108 | |
Elf Lord
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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11-10-2003, 01:50 AM | #109 | |
Lord of the Pants
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Quote:
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11-10-2003, 02:13 AM | #110 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Narnia and the North!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
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11-10-2003, 03:16 AM | #111 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
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11-10-2003, 04:22 AM | #112 |
Lord of the Pants
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Snobbery my arse - most of those texts that predated the 70s were badly out of date.
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11-10-2003, 08:50 AM | #113 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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I have to agree with Sheeana here. Think of some of the funky stuff that was totally accepted pre 70's. Sexism, (big time ) racism, environmental arogance. Many things were often analyzed in a one sided spin, I'm getting hives just thinking about it! Just my opinion, of course.
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11-10-2003, 09:32 AM | #114 |
Elf Lord
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It's generally better to use up to date sources, simply because they build on the foundations laid by their predecessors.
OTOH, you can get caught up in whatever current trends are sweeping the field- less of a danger the "harder" the subject. Of the names I recognize on the list, Marc Bloch was one of the founders of the Annales school of history, among the first to study economic and social history based on the actual documents (local registers etc). Incidentally, he joined the French Resistance (he was Jewish) and was executed by the Nazis. Lynn White I'm prejudiced in favour of, as I did a term paper on "Medieval Technology and Social Change"; again, someone who really opened up a field by integrating isolated approaches. I'm certainly not up to date in the cutting edge of medieval studies, but I'd still recommend it as a good introduction-especially if you're interested in stirrups, horse collars and beans.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
11-10-2003, 04:01 PM | #115 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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*hee hee, I got her* Luv ya, Sheeana! Park that arse back in a comfy chair in your lovely new home and settle down!
There's no reason to toss a book simply because of when it was written (and I note that you did use the modifier "general", which was good, IMHO), unless it is in a scientific-type field where more advanced techniques have definitely proved previous conclusions to be in error. However, I don't think more advanced techniques have proved the medieval ages to be an illusion or anything like that , and a well-written and informative book that may be 50 years old may still remain a well-written and informative book 50 years later (again, IMHO). And as Mouser pointed out, "you can get caught up in whatever current trends are sweeping the field...", so it would probably be very valuable to read books from various eras to get a fuller (is that a word?) picture of things. IMHO, of course (my, I'm 'umble today, ain't I? Just like Uriah Heep!) It continues to astound me, BTW, that Jane Austen wrote her masterpieces almost 200 years ago, and they are bright, brillliant and very up-to-date (excluding things like clothes, of course).
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
11-10-2003, 04:14 PM | #116 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Lizra - I like you You've been a great pleasure to post with! I hope I don't irritate you too much There are many ways that I wish I was more like you. I don't particularly like the way I am But I guess I just have to work with who I am and try to do my best.
That's a good point you have about sexism, racism, etc., but I think that there are some erroneous POVs unique to our times that WE have that people 50 years ago would have warned against, and that affect the books that we write today. I still think that a book written 50 years ago, about medieval times, may be an excellent book. GrayMouser, your knowledge continues to astound me ... (and I like you, too, BTW, and you've been a great pleasure to post with! Now why were you re-reading Narnia?)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! Last edited by RĂan : 11-10-2003 at 04:17 PM. |
11-10-2003, 06:50 PM | #117 | |
Elven Warrior
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Charles Haskins still inspires and causes argument even though he wrote The Renaissance of the Twelfth Century in 1927! Ganshoff remains the force to be reckoned with in medieval studies, and a good many dissertations are still fueled by his conclusions. Exactly how can anyone do medieval studies without reading White, Bloch or Cantor, all of whom wrote substantially before 1970? Edit:More contemporary writers do exist. General surveys are provided by Joseph and France Gies, who between them have written over 20 books dealing with the medieval period. I love their work, however, it is pretty much a reflection and summation of the work of previous historians with little or no new insights on the primary sources. Norman Cantor has done a lot after 1970, but the guy is pretty much a hack. Susan Reynold’s work with the primary sources is good, but she is mostly a reaction to the interpretations of, once again, previous historians. Bachrach is an excellent historian whose work is very fresh, but he is limited to military history. P.W. Hammond wrote an interesting book Food and Feast in Medieval England, published in the late 90s. Maurice Keen has books published in the 80s and 90s, and his book Chivalry is really pretty good, but his work is only indirectly apropos to manoralism. It is best to approach archeology with the most recently published material. Also, there has been an explosion of recent military history in the past two decades. However, the historical interpretations applied in the most recent past are mostly reactions to previous historians. But the real issue in regards to JD’s post revolves around “feudalism” and manoralism and the best place to start is Ganshof who is important in redefining feudalism in contradiction to the Marxist historical interpretation that JD is hinting at, and for highlighting the fact that feudalism and manoralism are two different things. To mention Susan Reynolds in connection to this, who is the most recent voice that I can think of on this issue, would be muddying the water because her treatment is nothing more than a reaction to Ganshof. The best thing to do, really, is to read the primary sources for yourself, and thanks to ORB, much is available in translation on line. BTW, I have never in my life “officially” studied medieval history. My postgraduate education was in dogmatic theology (and, btw, I don’t remember ever being limited to post 1970 sources that were apropos to my research... thankfully, because Vatican II was pre-1970... it would be strange, indeed, to dispel Vatican II as antiquated in the field of Catholic theology). My reading regarding medieval history and culture is a hobby surrounding historical re-enactment and experimentation, and perhaps as a catalyst for my thinking regarding morality and Christian social teaching. --Dave
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Miserable mourning is never the equal of noble action; nor are rest and relaxation as good as war, trouble and action. --Bertran de Born, Knight and Troubadour Castle Duncan Last edited by Guillaume le Maréchal : 11-10-2003 at 07:59 PM. |
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11-11-2003, 02:09 AM | #118 | |
Elven Warrior
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Miserable mourning is never the equal of noble action; nor are rest and relaxation as good as war, trouble and action. --Bertran de Born, Knight and Troubadour Castle Duncan |
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11-11-2003, 07:56 AM | #119 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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Don't trust any book over 30?
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11-11-2003, 09:37 AM | #120 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Apr 2003
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um, she said text books, not just any book
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