Narnia and Middle-Earth

trolls' bane · 02-17-2003, 05:09 PM

Should'nt Narnia supposed to be somewhere beyond Mordor? I personally think it should, although it's by different authors [after all, C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien were best friends (so I've heard)]? Actually, they have some of the same place names, such as the Northern Wastes. Wouldn't that be interesting?!

Elvengirl · 02-17-2003, 07:00 PM

They were best friends? Really?
That would be cool if Narnia was beyond Mordor. I loved all of those stories and have read them a lot.
But they are so different.....almost as if they don't belong in the same world, but thats just my opinion...

Gwaimir Windgem · 02-17-2003, 08:36 PM

They were very good friends, indeed. Both members of the Inklings.

I agree, though; Narnia is an altogether different world from this one.

Lollypopgurl · 02-17-2003, 11:32 PM

Wow... that would be awesome! *Starts thinking about writing a crossover fic*

Meldon · 02-18-2003, 10:16 PM

That's right. Both members of the Inklings, and every Tuesday they would share ideas with one another and pieces that they had written. So of course their work turned out somewhat similar.

Amandil · 02-19-2003, 08:22 AM

While I love both literary corpi (gee, it's fun seeing if I can use big words properly that I don't understand), the respective qualities of each are not exactly complementary. I think a marriage of the two would be a bit of a monstrosity. Tolkien's avoidance of "allegory" is partially directed against Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia, which were allegorical par excellence. Lewis drew an awful lot from Greek/Roman myth (satyrs, dryads, talking animals, etc.) whereas Tolkien drew from Northern European myth (dragons, elves, dwarves, etc.). Tolkien took extreme care to sub-create a believable and self-sustaining literary universe. Lewis didn't (and it's no wonder he didn't, he had alot of other books to write) but often borrowed a few nice-sounding "fantasy names" from Tolkien -- e.g., Cair Pairavel (sp? I believe the "Cair" bit is a direct rip-off of Cair Andros, whereas the "Pairavel" bit is just a meaningless sound he invented...). Methinks that to officially join these two sorts of "worlds," as likeable as both of them may be, it would be a bad match.

**Nurvingiel** · 02-23-2003, 06:08 PM

Cair, or caer, is an ancient name for a fort, so no one stole it.

It's easy to accidentally borrow ideas from authors who influence your work. I'm sure two Inklings would be in this situation.

gimli7410 · 02-25-2003, 11:50 AM

has anyone actually seen the movie on the witch,the lion and the wardrobe(ithink that is what is called)

Falagar · 02-25-2003, 05:21 PM

Quote:

has anyone actually seen the movie on the witch,the lion and the wardrobe(ithink that is what is called)

No, but I saw the old TV-series...
IMO, as has already been said, Middle Earth and Narnia are too different to be compared.

Elvengirl · 02-25-2003, 07:05 PM

I saw a cartoon called The Lion The Witch and The Wardrobe

galadriel · 02-25-2003, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gimli7410
has anyone actually seen the movie on the witch,the lion and the wardrobe(ithink that is what is called)

The live action one with the talking animals that are actually people dressed in funny costumes?

This is the best known one, I think, if there's just one. I saw it when I was little. It was actually pretty good, I think... but of course, I was little. I wasn't a very good judge. It was either made by PBS or BBC, I think... some public station. There were movies for most of his other books, too, made by the same people.

markedel · 02-25-2003, 09:56 PM

Yes. I would think that Tolkien would dislike the allegorical nature of Narnia, even if he was good friends with Lewis. Both did share similar views in many things as I understand it, but ME is far more "sub-creative" in my mind.

FrodoFriend · 02-26-2003, 07:56 AM

Some parts of Narnia would fit into Middle Earth. The southern lands of Narnia (from The Horse and His Boy), would make a nice Harad. But the lands were the main stories take place are too different. Narnia is more of a fairy tale universe, while LotR is similar to ancient heroic epics like Beowulf and such. In LotR things are not so obviously "magical"; rather, Tolkien tried to build a perfectly believable, logical, and dignified universe. And of course, LotR is more of an adult book, while Narnia is for kids (although both books can be read by anyone!).

GrayMouser · 02-26-2003, 11:52 AM

Actually, Tolkien hated the Narnia books- he felt they were just a jumble of things tossed together with a heavy-handed dose of allegory.

And, Tolkien and Lewis were friends, but their friendship ended for a variety of reasons.

Gwaimir Windgem · 02-26-2003, 12:04 PM

Quote:

has anyone actually seen the movie on the witch,the lion and the wardrobe

I think the more important quest is, 'Has anyone actually read the book The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe (not the Witch, the Lion, and the Wardrobe

)
Anyway, there were two, I think; one cartoon, and one live-action movie (which had, if I remember, Voyage of the Dawn Treader and Prince Caspian all rolled up in one, LLT, and The Silver Chair. Left my favorite one out

(Magician's Nephew) )

Elvengirl · 02-26-2003, 05:02 PM

Yes, I have read the whole series and loved them!
I've heard of the live action movies but I don't want to see them.

The stories are so different from LOTR, I can see why Tolkien would dislike them. It is more of a fairy tale world with all the magical creatures; but that was one reason I like them so much.

It surprises me to find they were friends.

Amandil · 02-27-2003, 04:04 AM

Quote:

Cair, or caer, is an ancient name for a fort, so no one stole it.

Oh yeah, duh! They used the same bad spelling, though!

Why did Lewis and Tolkien end their friendship, anyway?

GrayMouser · 03-01-2003, 01:14 PM

I'm not an expert, but from what I've read-

Tolkien disliked Lewis's new friend Charles Williams, who was fairly heavily into the occult (and whom Tolkien may have considered not up to the same intellectual standard)

Tolkien was disappointed that when Lewis became a Christian he didn't become a Catholic ( a bit much to ask from one of Protestant Ulster stock)

Tolkien was (supposedly) jealous of Lewis's success, and/or felt that Lewis was jumping in over his head in his theological writings, rushing to publish without taking time to reflect and study.

***Rían*** · 03-01-2003, 01:35 PM

From what I've read in Tolkien's letters, it seems like they didn't have bad blood between them, but it was more a case of changing interests and different friends and things. 'Tho Tolkien certainly wished Lewis would become a Catholic, I think they were both mature enough Christians to deal with the differences, although Tolkien noted that Lewis seemed to be very prejudiced against some of the Catholic beliefs. When Lewis died, Tolkien was very deeply affected - he wrote something like 'when other friends die, it's like losing branches off a tree; when Jack died, it was like an axe-blow to the trunk...'

GrayMouser · 03-01-2003, 02:24 PM

OOPS, cut myself off

And, Tolkien opposed Lewis's marriage, though I haven't been able to find out why- if he was objecting to her being divorced, which would invalidate it in Tolkien's view, or whether it was personal - after all, she was -horrors!-American.

02-17-2003, 05:09 PM	#1
trolls' bane Entmoot Secretary of the Treasury Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Campsite-by-Giraffe Posts: 5,408	Narnia and Middle-Earth Should'nt Narnia supposed to be somewhere beyond Mordor? I personally think it should, although it's by different authors [after all, C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien were best friends (so I've heard)]? Actually, they have some of the same place names, such as the Northern Wastes. Wouldn't that be interesting?! __________________ KI6PFA Amateur Radio Operator Last edited by trolls' bane : 02-17-2003 at 05:12 PM.

02-17-2003, 08:36 PM	#3
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	They were very good friends, indeed. Both members of the Inklings. I agree, though; Narnia is an altogether different world from this one. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

02-17-2003, 11:32 PM	#4
Lollypopgurl Elven Warrior Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 222	Wow... that would be awesome! Starts thinking about writing a crossover fic __________________ a violinist...

02-19-2003, 08:22 AM	#6
Amandil Guy-who-should-come-here-more-often Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Alberta, in spirit -- Vlaanderen, in body (Canada? Never heard of it!) Posts: 120	While I love both literary corpi (gee, it's fun seeing if I can use big words properly that I don't understand), the respective qualities of each are not exactly complementary. I think a marriage of the two would be a bit of a monstrosity. Tolkien's avoidance of "allegory" is partially directed against Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia, which were allegorical par excellence. Lewis drew an awful lot from Greek/Roman myth (satyrs, dryads, talking animals, etc.) whereas Tolkien drew from Northern European myth (dragons, elves, dwarves, etc.). Tolkien took extreme care to sub-create a believable and self-sustaining literary universe. Lewis didn't (and it's no wonder he didn't, he had alot of other books to write) but often borrowed a few nice-sounding "fantasy names" from Tolkien -- e.g., Cair Pairavel (sp? I believe the "Cair" bit is a direct rip-off of Cair Andros, whereas the "Pairavel" bit is just a meaningless sound he invented...). Methinks that to officially join these two sorts of "worlds," as likeable as both of them may be, it would be a bad match. __________________ Amandil Mithadan "Why would you want to tamper with anything Tolkien did?" --Ralph Bashki "Seeking self, I find nothing but myself, but in this I drink the cup of gall I really am. I want everything, and I may have everything, but I have nothing except what I have. What I have I know is not what will fulfill me, and I know this in the bitterness of satisfied desire. Everything I have is still not enough, and in getting everything I have, I have not myself, indeed what I have may have twisted what I am and might be into an image of my own possessions. I will to possess, but I end up possessed by what I possess." -- William Desmond (Ethics and the Between, p. 209-210)

02-25-2003, 11:50 AM	#8
gimli7410 the dumb stoner canuck Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: canada Posts: 2,542	has anyone actually seen the movie on the witch,the lion and the wardrobe(ithink that is what is called) __________________ -"Down with the system"-Serj tankian of system of a down -“Humans have been on the earth for millions of years, yet we don’t believe man began thinking until he started building walls. And what good have these walls ever done us?”-Serj tankian of soad -"stupid people do stupid things"-Serj tankian of soad "Trying is the first step to failure" Homer Simpson "It isn't going to be easy"-jerseydevil "only the good die young" I AM CANADIAN If the people lead, the leaders will follow.

02-17-2003, 07:00 PM	#2
Elvengirl Mirthful Maiden Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Rivendell Posts: 1,252	They were best friends? Really? That would be cool if Narnia was beyond Mordor. I loved all of those stories and have read them a lot. But they are so different.....almost as if they don't belong in the same world, but thats just my opinion...

02-18-2003, 10:16 PM	#5
Meldon Hobbit Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Beyond the fields we know... Posts: 17	That's right. Both members of the Inklings, and every Tuesday they would share ideas with one another and pieces that they had written. So of course their work turned out somewhat similar.

02-25-2003, 07:05 PM	#10
Elvengirl Mirthful Maiden Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Rivendell Posts: 1,252	I saw a cartoon called The Lion The Witch and The Wardrobe

02-25-2003, 09:56 PM	#12
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	Yes. I would think that Tolkien would dislike the allegorical nature of Narnia, even if he was good friends with Lewis. Both did share similar views in many things as I understand it, but ME is far more "sub-creative" in my mind. __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

02-26-2003, 07:56 AM	#13
FrodoFriend Halfwitted Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Eryn Vorn Posts: 1,659	Some parts of Narnia would fit into Middle Earth. The southern lands of Narnia (from The Horse and His Boy), would make a nice Harad. But the lands were the main stories take place are too different. Narnia is more of a fairy tale universe, while LotR is similar to ancient heroic epics like Beowulf and such. In LotR things are not so obviously "magical"; rather, Tolkien tried to build a perfectly believable, logical, and dignified universe. And of course, LotR is more of an adult book, while Narnia is for kids (although both books can be read by anyone!). __________________ Fingolfin lives! ... in my finger! The Crossroads of Arda - Warning. Halfwit content. Not appropriate for people with IQ of over 18. The Fellowship of the Message Board Nyáréonié - The Tale of Tears

02-26-2003, 11:52 AM	#14
GrayMouser Elf Lord Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Ilha Formosa Posts: 2,068	Actually, Tolkien hated the Narnia books- he felt they were just a jumble of things tossed together with a heavy-handed dose of allegory. And, Tolkien and Lewis were friends, but their friendship ended for a variety of reasons. __________________ Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill

02-26-2003, 05:02 PM	#16
Elvengirl Mirthful Maiden Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Rivendell Posts: 1,252	Yes, I have read the whole series and loved them! I've heard of the live action movies but I don't want to see them. The stories are so different from LOTR, I can see why Tolkien would dislike them. It is more of a fairy tale world with all the magical creatures; but that was one reason I like them so much. It surprises me to find they were friends.

03-01-2003, 01:14 PM	#18
GrayMouser Elf Lord Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Ilha Formosa Posts: 2,068	I'm not an expert, but from what I've read- Tolkien disliked Lewis's new friend Charles Williams, who was fairly heavily into the occult (and whom Tolkien may have considered not up to the same intellectual standard) Tolkien was disappointed that when Lewis became a Christian he didn't become a Catholic ( a bit much to ask from one of Protestant Ulster stock) Tolkien was (supposedly) jealous of Lewis's success, and/or felt that Lewis was jumping in over his head in his theological writings, rushing to publish without taking time to reflect and study. __________________ Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill

03-01-2003, 01:35 PM	#19
*Rían* Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!) Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Not where I want to be ... Posts: 15,254	From what I've read in Tolkien's letters, it seems like they didn't have bad blood between them, but it was more a case of changing interests and different friends and things. 'Tho Tolkien certainly wished Lewis would become a Catholic, I think they were both mature enough Christians to deal with the differences, although Tolkien noted that Lewis seemed to be very prejudiced against some of the Catholic beliefs. When Lewis died, Tolkien was very deeply affected - he wrote something like 'when other friends die, it's like losing branches off a tree; when Jack died, it was like an axe-blow to the trunk...' __________________ . I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!

03-01-2003, 02:24 PM	#20
GrayMouser Elf Lord Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Ilha Formosa Posts: 2,068	OOPS, cut myself off And, Tolkien opposed Lewis's marriage, though I haven't been able to find out why- if he was objecting to her being divorced, which would invalidate it in Tolkien's view, or whether it was personal - after all, she was -horrors!-American. __________________ Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill

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