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11-08-2005, 11:30 PM | #1 |
of the House of Fëanor
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Paris Is Burning
Why is Paris burning? Why are the muslim kids burning everything, from Paris and Toulouse now on into Germany and Belgium, and it isn't slowing down? This is a heavy topic, rife with possibility for intense debate. How did it come to this, this surreal revolution/riot of the young minority underclass of France? What really has caused it, and how should (or can) it be amended? How can this sort of thing be prevented - better immigration control?
I'm open to answers and ideas from interested and informed mooters who are up on this craziness developing lately in France. http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/11/1781854.php http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4415574.stm
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11-08-2005, 11:38 PM | #2 |
The Black Númenórean
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because, the little **** bunch that are these young muslims, rather then embracing the culture of the new country, want to change it to suit them and their rather ass backwards set of beliefs. Just my opinion though.
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11-09-2005, 01:32 AM | #3 | ||
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I think it's more complicated than you assert TLSP.
There are a number of factors involved, like France's immigration policy, racism towards people from the Middle-east and northern Africa, the terrible living conditions and poverty in the ghettos, and probably a lot of factors that I don't understand. There's actually rioting in 300 French cities right now. This series of events started when two young men who lived in a ghetto outside Paris were killed (they were electrocuted IIRC) when they thought the police were chasing them. They must have had a reason to believe this, and a reason to be scared, even though in this case the police were not actually involved. This tragedy set off the riots; people see the two young men as martyrs.
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11-09-2005, 03:21 AM | #4 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-09-2005, 04:19 AM | #5 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Well, Paris has huge slums where young people have almost no future. Especially young people of foreign origin. But this is more like plain vandalism. I saw an interview with one with the rioters. Said he can't get a job because everyone discriminates against young immigrants, says everyone thinks they steal and aren't worth anything. Said he was bored.
While I can understand how frustrating that can be, I can't exactly say that burning other's people property, beating an old man to death and throwing molotov cocktails at the firemen who come to put out your fires, is going to work miracles on that image. I think this article may give a better view of the situation although I don't agree entirely with it. The comments below are interesting too. As for the youngsters who started burning cars in Belgium, I'm pretty sure all they were just inspired by what happened in Paris and decided to have some fun.
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11-09-2005, 04:39 AM | #6 | ||
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Whoops, double post... nothing to see here...
\/
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Last edited by Nurvingiel : 11-09-2005 at 05:00 AM. |
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11-09-2005, 04:59 AM | #7 | |||
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Thanks guys.
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It seems, from these events, that racism is a big problem in French society. I had no idea that conditions for these riots even existed in France. [Skip this meandering bit if you're pressed for time...] If I couldn't work or go to school I'd probably read a variety of books. But I am lucky enough to get to study Forestry, so Ivan Illich's book "Deschooling Society" remains unread. However, the reason I like reading so much is ever since I was old enough to sit up, my parents of read to me. Then, when I learned how to read at the age of five, they still read to me, and encouraged me to read on my own. If my parents had been stuck in long hours in crappy jobs, they wouldn't have been able to afford the 5000+ books in our house, and they wouldn't have had as much time to spend with us kids. Therefore, I would not have had reading to fill my days with endless pleasure. If I lived in a ghetto, the school (unlike the one I attended) would not have shown me the joys of rugby and art due to lack of funding. If no one would hire me due to racism and a lack of education, what would happen? Bored and jobless, I too would be smoking pot on the corner with my friends. [/meandering] The French government has expressed a desire to work towards a solution to these problems, and have condemned the violence. I applaud this attitude, but I sincerely hope this comes with a long term commitment to a solution. Short-term effort isn't going effect useful change. If you want someone to be integrated in society, they have to feel welcome. Combating racism is difficult but workable. People are no longer horribly racist to First Nations people in Canadian society (though vestiges of this attitude still exist); it can be done. It takes long-term effort. You can't expect a new-comer to society to shed his or her old culture and immediately and flawlessly assimilate into the new culture. France is not the Borg. France is made up of free-thinking individuals and if you want immigration to be a success, immigrants must be respected as individuals. If they practice a religion found in the minority in France? Take this as an opportunity to learn something new, and practice religious tolerance. Maybe they don't look like a typical French person, and you resent this because you want to keep France "pure". (Apparently this attitude actually exists in France. I don't know how widespread that is.) Well, what exactly does a "typical" French person look like? Racism is completely devoid of logic. I realize I'm mostly preaching to the choir here, but I hope other people who have some influence over Jacques Chirac and Nicolas Sarkozy are saying the same things.
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11-09-2005, 11:21 AM | #8 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I think it goes two ways with the racism - from what I've heard, many if not most of the Muslims want to be in France, but fairly separate, and the French have allowed this to a large extent from what they thought were good motives, and this is one of the unintended repercussions. I'll see if I can find an article that expresses this better than I have.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-10-2005, 06:03 PM | #9 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
Just joking: couldn't resist it. However, EVERY time I have been to France (5 or 6) I have witnessed quite extreme yet casual racism at first hand. It seems to be considered OK to express these ideas in a way that would be unacceptable this side of La Manche. Oh, and of course, the overtly racist Jean Marie Le Pen came second in the last Presidential election. People often make the mistake of thinking that France is some sort of welfare heaven, where people doss about all day and the state looks after them. That is utter pish. France, like the rest of Europe, is capitalist where opportunities are reserved for select groups of people. So, class in other words. As you have all noted, apart from the ironically named "last sane person", the problem is about vast swathes of people having naff all to live for. Finally, the French police, especially the CRS, are notorious for the alacrity with which they beat the skulls of scumbags. If the French want to stop this sort of thing from happening they need to deal with the racism and deprivation. Last edited by The Gaffer : 11-10-2005 at 06:05 PM. |
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11-09-2005, 02:27 AM | #11 |
The Supreme Lord of The Northern Eagles
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I just read about it on sunday, I think, and then the rioting and car-burning had already lasted a week in Paris. I haven't read much more about it, but your article was very good Lin
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11-10-2005, 06:52 PM | #12 | |
Elven Warrior
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paris rioting
Quote:
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Nin o Chithaeglir, lasto beth daer: Rimmo nin Bruinen dan in Ulaer! Nin o Chithaeglir, lasto beth daer: Rimmo nin Bruinen dan in Ulaer! REST IN PEACE GRANDMA, GREAT AUNT, GREAT UNCLE .....they're gunna fly with the angels now so say goodbye..but i can't. You don't really realize the importance of someone until they are gone Last edited by Tamuril Sirfalas : 11-10-2005 at 06:58 PM. Reason: more ideas |
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11-11-2005, 03:21 AM | #13 | ||
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I agree that riots are definitely not the answer. But they are a symptom of aforementioned problems like racism in French society.
(I wasn't under the impression that France was a welfare haven or such like, but I sure was surprised when this happened. I have never been to France though.)
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11-09-2005, 03:05 AM | #14 | |
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Quote:
As Nurvingiel said, there are probably lots of other factors behind this as well.
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11-10-2005, 06:16 PM | #15 | |
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course the french don't have a band as good as 'the clash' ... but the racist intolerance and heavy handed nazi style actions of the french sinister interior ministry ... ghettos, attacks on freedoms and culture - economic, cultural and practical alienation and they expect everyone to have a tea party? bring on the belgians i say! (although you should note Earniel that i only do as it is one of my all time favorite sayings - comes from stuart hall a tv (and now radio) commenator - does anyone remember 'it's a knock-out' or international 'it's a knock-out!' ?? there were teams from all over europe, in big inflatable costumes, trying to carry water buckets over ropes and avoid giant swinging inflatable balls etc etc ... the classic phrase was ... 'and here come the belgians!" and also the seminal almost legendary classic "bring on the belgians!" don't know why but he had a thing about the belgians ..and it seemed to strike a chord with the nation ... though no one could explain why? (forget why - is a very excitable bloke old stupot hall ) somethings rotten in the state of france ... it needs fumigating! |
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11-10-2005, 06:20 PM | #16 |
Elf Lord
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just seen your post there gaffer - you'r right!
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11-13-2005, 01:55 AM | #17 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
Furthermore, France has been an extremely secular state for many years. This clashes with the views of the many Muslim immigrants, who are used to Shariah law. To many French, religion is all right so long as it is in your own home, behind closed doors. For the Muslims, religion has always been part of state and society. Coming into an extremely secular environment is a very difficult switch, and when little effort to adjust to customary French ways is made, the religious barrier becomes even sharper. Another issue is, of course, poverty. Many of the immigrants came to France, hoping for a better future. They have been sadly disappointed. Few jobs are available to them, little future awaits them, and society shuts their way of thinking out. My French teacher claims that unemployment was a big problem in France before the immigrants began to pour in. Thus, my teacher claims that the French have not been treating the Africans and Middle Eastern folk in a racist or intolerant way, but a problem that already existed in France is massively expanded. Within . . . I believe the last twenty years, 8 million or so immigrants moved to France. That's 8 million out of the total population of France, which is 60 million. Needless to say, the population shift is enormous. France also is a very cramped country. It has limiting, close boundaries, trapping and confining the expanding population. It has none of the history of acceptance of diversity, and none of the culture blending that America has always experienced. I think that these explanations my teacher made about the history of the difficulties make a lot of sense. As regards the racism argument, I really couldn't comment. I know there is an opposing side to the story as well; there always is. Anyway . . . just thought I'd post some of the dimensions to the conflict that I've heard from a native Parisian.
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11-13-2005, 10:15 AM | #18 |
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Good post Lief. Intergration is a big problem in France. Not only are there many immigrants from former French colonies who haven't really blended with the French community, but their kids and grandkids have troubles blending in as well. When a country have 2nd and 3rd generations of immigrants who haven't become integrated, the country is bound to see problems arise.
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11-13-2005, 02:52 PM | #19 |
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Gosh. I wish I had time to read that. Saving to Word...
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11-13-2005, 06:16 PM | #20 | |||
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Very thoughtful post Lief. I'm glad to see you around. I don't think your Parisian friend's insight rules out racism and other problems from the "other side of the coin", but they definitely add another layer. There aren't bad guys and good guys in this situation (as your post served to outline).
From the Globe and Mail, Saturday, November 12: Quote:
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