|
11-19-2003, 07:48 PM | #1 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Houston TX USA
Posts: 245
|
A theory
At the outset, let me say that I am not attempting to denigrate or in any way belittle the opinions of any individuals. I am honestly curious about this, and I think it might make for an interesting discussion.
Is there a correlation between the age of individuals and their willingness to accept changes made to the story in the movie adaptation? Speaking for myself, I made a conscious decision to seperate the books from the movies, and to judge the movies based upon their own merits or lack thereof. Having done so, I can honestly say that I think the movies were very well done, despite the fact that certain plot and character elements were changed to a greater or lesser degree. But here's the catch. 15 years ago, I would have been screaming to the heavens about the changes. I would not have been able to evaluate the movies beyond noticing all the myriad little (and big) changes. Even more recently, I recall being angry at hearing that Elijah Wood had been cast as Frodo-Frodo was 50, not 20. Perhaps age has mellowed me to the point that I no longer consider it critical that the movies match precisely. I really don't know. Thoughts?
__________________
Yet neither by wolf, nor by Balrog, nor by Dragon, would Morgoth have achieved his end, but for the treachery of Men. Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again. |
11-19-2003, 08:35 PM | #2 |
Lurker
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Lothlórien
Posts: 3,419
|
Eh- no. I'm 13, jerseydevil's an adult, Ruinel's 7000. I can't speak for the pro-movie faction.
__________________
There's antimony, arsenic, aluminum, selenium... |
11-19-2003, 09:36 PM | #3 |
High King of Númenórë
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Númenórë <--United States of America
Posts: 1,947
|
Well as I think I've made it apparent, I am a huge fan of the books, but yet I am in the same boat as you Bacchus. I love the movies and appreciate what they have accomplished, changes or not. I am 25...
__________________
'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
11-19-2003, 11:34 PM | #4 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lawrence, Kansas, USA
Posts: 195
|
Quote:
I'm 28 by the way. I don't think age has as much to do with one's reaction as does one's familiarity with the books. Maybe the less experienced fans are more accepting of the films because they've read the books only once, maybe twice, as opposed to a grizzled old Tolkien veteran who has the background and knowledge to be more critical. I know a couple 15-16 year olds who fall into the latter category, and old fogeys who fall into the former. Age really isn't the issue, IMO.
__________________
A citizen runs to the fire department yelling that he's spotted a roaring blaze from his car. "WHERE IS IT?" the fire department asks, pen ready. "It rises like some brooding , glaring trail of cosmic fury from- " "WHERE? WHERE?" "Oh. Well, it blazes up from a crimson-sheathed visage brooding darkly above the haunted towers of impotent indignity which, like melons hovering unhappily over lifetimes of empty meaning which-" "THE ADDRESS!" "Oh. Oh, I didn't notice. But look for a brooding, glaring trail of cosmic fury rising from a crimson-sheathed visage-" They lead him back to his car, and send him on. -- Philip K. Dick "Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." -- Diderot |
|
11-20-2003, 04:37 AM | #5 |
founder of the color blue
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: E-Space
Posts: 1,727
|
I agree, age doesnt really seem like an issue, more of a personality thing, how much you are willing to budge on the subject. some will not budge at all, and some will. It just depends on how you view the books. Same with that Jesus movie that is coming out (I dont know what it is actullly called), some people will probably hate it, and some will like it. Just depends on how you view the suject matter.
(if you can find one coherent thought here, you win!)
__________________
Well, there it is. |
11-20-2003, 05:22 AM | #6 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Quote:
As for the question at hand - I'm not going to claim I kept them seperate. I expected certain things from the movies - especially with Jackson's proganda of saying how much he couldn't change this or that and then to go into the theater and see Flight to the Ford. I was expecting a more intelligent movie and not a dumbed down action movie with the cliched cheap low brow jokes. As movies go - I think they are just average. Great scenary though - he captured the LOOK of Middle Earth great. And yes - I am an adult. And I do not like the movies. I don't even have the extended edition yet and not sure when I will get it. The only real reason I need the movie is so I can discuss it on the moot. I read the books 12 times in 6 years starting when I was a freshman in high school and reading them two times a year (spring and fall). Zinnite - I was one of those 15-16 year olds who fell into the latter category. I used to know everything about Tolkien and Middle Earth and the Lord of the Rings. Sadly I have lost too much of my knowledge. But I do know that Jackson's movie does not contain the heart and soul of the Tolkien.
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
|
11-20-2003, 10:06 AM | #7 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
|
JD: I think it was actually more of a difference in culture than actual biology. Remember, Hobbits usually lived to be about a hundred years old; that is of course much older than humans, but if the Hobbit "coming of age" were to be equated to the human "18", then Hobbits ought to live nearly twice as long as humans, as of course 33-18=15. So I think it's more of a cultural thing, though there is some biological difference. However, I will agree to the extent that it wasn't bad, since Frodo was pretty well unchanged from the age of 33-50.
I used to keep the films separate; in fact, when BB categorized the purists here a long time ago, I coined the term "Separatist Purist" to describe myself. However, I am afraid that since then, my love of Tolkien has been traumatized severely by the same BB's constant singing of the praise of Jackson and his nigh on perfect adaptation, which has made Tolkien's work better (but not replaced it ) to the point that I'm afraid my "separatism" has been damaged too severely to be used for some time in this regard.
__________________
Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
11-20-2003, 10:19 AM | #8 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
36 here... little or no problem with the changes
i don't know if your theory is true for every individual... but there may be a general trend... rock-solid principles in my teens became nice ideals in my mid-20s, and are now just something to write about on message boards Quote:
|
|
11-20-2003, 10:33 AM | #9 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
|
Quote:
I disagree that it's familiarity with the books though. I think another poster was perhaps more on target when he mentions "personality". I have read the books a number of times now - at least 6 or 7. I prefer the books as books, but I like the movies - and concede that they're probably better as movies than a direct translation (not sure if that's the best word - it'll have to do) from the book to a movie would be as a movie. |
|
11-20-2003, 10:41 AM | #10 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
|
I'm 38, and you can put me at the point on the spectrum that says
"Design and production excellent. Realises that changes have to be made in adapting a book, but felt that some of them weren't the right ones or didn't work." |
11-20-2003, 11:00 AM | #11 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
|
Quote:
Would you say though, as I would, that all-in-all, you're glad we have the movies... warts and all? |
|
11-20-2003, 12:09 PM | #12 |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
|
Well, looks like I'm the senior here at 48 I read the books when I was 16 and have read them several times. I remember way back when, looking forward to the Bakshi film coming out. Went to see it and was quite disappointed, although I think it was a bit truer to the books. I have to say that I have enjoyed the Jackson films and found that I could seperate myself between books and movies, but with some disappointment at times where the films just may have gone a bit too far or not far enough, with the omission of certian characters, and what I thought were some drastic changes in scenes that were unneccessary and at times just plain silly, but overall, I liked the movies. I have found that you have extreamists with both movies and books, and then you have your seperatists. Not sure how much age has to do with it, but how much you know Tolkien and how far your devotion goes, and can you still be a devoted Tolkien fan if you like the films, or is it a crime to try to have an open mind. Does liking the films condem you as a true Tolkien reader?
__________________
"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
11-20-2003, 02:46 PM | #13 |
Long lost mooter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,342
|
I think you might be onto something. I haven't seen anyone over thirty who comes on here rant about how they hated the movies as adaptations. It's those hot-headed youths. Then again, I don't know the exact ages of some of the adult mooters, so I don't know that we can ever get a definative answer. Plus, I do know someone IRL who thought they were poorly adapted and he is over thirty. So who knows. It might have more to do with feeling compelled to speak one's mind than how much one did or didn't like them (IOW, the younger ones who didn't like them tend to post about it more, whereas an older one would not, perhaps viewing posting about something they didn't like as being a waste of time. Conversely, if you like something, you want to post about it no matter what your age. I don't know, I'm just guessing.)
BTW, I'm 32, and although I had criticisms, I enjoyed the movies. |
11-20-2003, 02:51 PM | #14 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 828
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
11-20-2003, 02:57 PM | #15 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Houston TX USA
Posts: 245
|
Thank you for the responses thus far. I have a few reactions:
1. jd, I disagree with your model equating 33 to 18, but further discussion of that is probably better addressed in a separate thread in the books board. 2. I intentionally omitted my age so as not to bias the hypothesis, but I'll gve it now. I am 33, and first read the books about 20 years ago. Since then, i've read the books on average twice annually. 3. I took a university Tolkien class at age 28. I recall having feelings of trepidation going in, relating to Tolkien's admonition (in "On Fairy-Stories") against overanalyzing the 'bones' that fed the 'soup'. I worried that academic study of the works might destroy the magic. I was mistaken in my fears. My feeling is that taking the class and being forced to think about the works in new ways both increased my appreciation and expanded my tolerance for other interpretations. 4. brownjenkins captures my thought well. I have no doubt that there are exceptions to my posited theory, but I was curious to see if generalizations were possible.
__________________
Yet neither by wolf, nor by Balrog, nor by Dragon, would Morgoth have achieved his end, but for the treachery of Men. Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again. |
11-20-2003, 02:58 PM | #16 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Quote:
As for respecting the filmmakers? I don't have to respect them. I think some of their changes were crap. I don't care if it was Tolkien himself who did the movies. I think they were dumbed down hollywood action movies. Quote:
So don't feed that old line about he had to do everything the ay he did it becuase of the restraints of making the movie - he didn't. It's a load of bull. An I did look at the EE of FotR - I just don't buy his proganda and trying to convince the Tolkien as to why he did things.
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 11-20-2003 at 03:00 PM. |
||
11-20-2003, 03:01 PM | #17 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Houston TX USA
Posts: 245
|
azaelea, you also make good points relating to selection bias. Can we generalize based on a possibly biased sample?
__________________
Yet neither by wolf, nor by Balrog, nor by Dragon, would Morgoth have achieved his end, but for the treachery of Men. Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again. |
11-20-2003, 03:03 PM | #18 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Houston TX USA
Posts: 245
|
The point of this thread is NOT to discuss whether the movies were good. It is rather to discuss whether ones perceptions of the movie might correlate with age.
__________________
Yet neither by wolf, nor by Balrog, nor by Dragon, would Morgoth have achieved his end, but for the treachery of Men. Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again. |
11-20-2003, 03:38 PM | #19 | |
Long lost mooter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,342
|
Quote:
[BTW, I forgot to mention in my first post that I first read LotR all the way through when I was around 14 (my dad had read book one to me when I was about 8).] |
|
11-20-2003, 04:02 PM | #20 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Houston TX USA
Posts: 245
|
Quote:
__________________
Yet neither by wolf, nor by Balrog, nor by Dragon, would Morgoth have achieved his end, but for the treachery of Men. Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again. |
|
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
My new theory on Tom Bombadil | Elanor | Middle Earth | 74 | 08-31-2011 06:30 AM |
Just War Theory and Iraq | Janny | General Messages | 11 | 05-13-2004 05:26 AM |
New Theory | Valandil | Lord of the Rings Movies | 14 | 11-05-2003 03:38 PM |
SPOILERS My theory on the Neville thing | Yamagata | Harry Potter | 13 | 07-03-2003 11:10 AM |
Religious beliefs/Former Frodo and Sam thread | Strange-Looking Lurker | Entmoot Archive | 186 | 02-22-2002 01:40 AM |