LOTR=Bible?

Novdur · 10-02-2003, 12:18 PM

Does anybody ever think about how closely certain parts of the
Bible resemble certain parts of LOTR?

Elvengirl · 10-02-2003, 12:40 PM

Rosie Gamgee · 10-02-2003, 01:27 PM

I do sometimes, but I think that's just Tolkien's principles showing through. I don't think the Bible and LOTR are supposed to have any connection. Tolkien said that himself numerous times.

Jedi X · 10-02-2003, 01:50 PM

I seem to recall reading that towards the latter part of his career, JRR said that it was a "deeply Catholic structure" or something to that effect. I'll see if I can dig that up.

Gamigar · 10-02-2003, 01:54 PM

I know he felt strongly against it, but it IS hard not to notice the similarities. For example;

Sauron-Satan
Nazgul-Demons

And Tolkien himself said that Iluvitar was basically God, as in the God of the Bible.

Rosie Gamgee · 10-02-2003, 02:13 PM

Well, every good story must have it's good and bad guys. I think one can pick out the 'Satan' and 'Demon' charaters in every epic, as well as the 'God'. I think that if one is of a one-god religion, and they write a mythology and a creation story for a fantasy realm, then I suppose their priciples would dictate a one-god mythology.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 10-02-2003, 02:17 PM

It is a well known fact that Tolkien disliked allegory, and denied it being in his works. However, the entire Middle-earth concept is a mythology, and gods, angelic beings, and good and evil all play their parts in it. Although Tolkien disliked allegory, he was a deeply religious man, and it is true that perhaps some of it unintentionally slipped into his writing. I think it may show much more so, in the Silmarillion, rather than in LotRs.

Sheeana · 10-02-2003, 03:08 PM

This has been done before. Just last year in fact.

http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/show...e&pagenumber=2

Brimstone · 10-02-2003, 03:26 PM

Gandalf died and rose again- and returned in order to save the world. Hmmm...

Elfhelm · 10-02-2003, 04:06 PM

Beowulf? The Eddas?

I mean, is there a tree like that in the Bible? No, it's a different tree.

I don't know about Ungoliant. I don't know if any other culture disparages spiders in that way.

I don't see any Tom Bombadil in the Bible.

I think if the Book of Enoch had been a part of the bible there might be some parallels, but somebody took it out and it hasn't been put back in.

As to the Sauron / Lucifer parallel and such, I think that discussion should be in the Silmarillion forum.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 10-02-2003, 04:17 PM

Quote:

As to the Sauron / Lucifer parallel and such, I think that discussion should be in the Silmarillion forum.

Yeah, I agree Elfhem. Morgoth was much more like to Lucifer than Sauron.

nazgul prince · 10-02-2003, 04:41 PM

It say's in the bible that Giants and Great heroes(Who were deseendant from the first humans and heavenly beings) once existed.Then noahs flood came along and destoyed everything.Kinda funny that are acually history as we no it starts at that point.Anyway shouldn't Morgoth=The Devil not sauron???

***IronParrot*** · 10-02-2003, 08:51 PM

LOTR doesn't "=" anything directly, but it certainly presents some interesting parallels to analyse, considering that Tolkien still had a personal model of the natures of good and evil, and his Catholic background probably had at least some influence on that.

Once again, it's the time-worn difference between allegory and applicability.

I think Tolkien doesn't explore the grand worldview so much in LOTR as he does in The Silmarillion, so that's where Biblical influences or similarities may be significantly more pronounced.

hectorberlioz · 10-03-2003, 12:39 PM

Jedi X is right. Tolkien said LotR was a "deeply catholic structure"

Insidious Rex · 10-03-2003, 03:03 PM

Like the bible was the ultimate source for things like good and bad characters. heroes and villans. supreme evil and demons. good and destiny and self sacrfice and reincarnation. All these themes can be found in sources and in uncounted unwritten tales and revelations that all predate the bible. they simply reflect the archatecture of our human interface with the world and the power of our imagination. theres no doubt tolkien was influenced by his faith but he wasnt writing a fantasy version of the bible. and the bible itself wasnt the first to have all these themes anyway.

hectorberlioz · 10-03-2003, 03:11 PM

oh my god! of course not! the only thing i've said IS that he was influenced by his faith.

Bombadillo · 10-03-2003, 10:27 PM

I know that he avoided religious references, but yaeh. I think that no matter how hard you try to avoid religion, it'll always show up while writing legends. If you get me.
He wrote ancient mythical histories, and although they weren't based on Christianity, some ideal showed up inevitably.

Either way, the Chronicles of Narnia a verily based on the Bible. That's irrelevant.

Attalus · 10-04-2003, 10:49 AM

The events in the Sil-LotR are supposed to predate the Bible, though one is free to imagine the Biblical patriarchs running around over in Far Harad or Rhun. Tolkien was trying to re-create a mythology for England in the BoLT, and, like Topsy, it just grew.

Jedi X · 10-04-2003, 07:16 PM

"The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision." ~JRR

That was it. Apparently he wrote this to a friend of his who was in the priesthood.

His essay, "On Fairy stories", sheds light on his ideas on the use of myth, of which (of course), LOTR was intended to convey.

Aewionen · 10-05-2003, 09:46 PM

I often think about the similarities between the Bible and LotR, but that might be because I am a Christian. The Nazgul do remind me of demons, where they were once men but where corrupted by the rings. Demons, which were (Someone please correct me if I am wrong) once angels, were corrupted by Satan.

10-02-2003, 12:18 PM	#1
Novdur Sapling Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Ft. Wayne IN Posts: 1	LOTR=Bible? Does anybody ever think about how closely certain parts of the Bible resemble certain parts of LOTR?

10-02-2003, 12:40 PM	#2
Elvengirl Mirthful Maiden Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Rivendell Posts: 1,252	NO __________________ The Elves represent, as it were, the artistic, aesthetic, and purely scientific aspects of the Humane nature raised to a higher level than is actually seen in Men.~ J.R.R. Tolkien Wanna play? www.thievesguild.com Last edited by Elvengirl : 10-02-2003 at 06:41 PM.

10-02-2003, 01:27 PM	#3
Rosie Gamgee The Lovely Hobbit-Lass Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Bounded in a nut-shell Posts: 1,593	I do sometimes, but I think that's just Tolkien's principles showing through. I don't think the Bible and LOTR are supposed to have any connection. Tolkien said that himself numerous times. __________________ It's New Years Day, just like the day before; Same old skies of grey, same empty bottles on the floor. Another year's gone by, and I was thinking once again, How can I take this losing hand and somehow win? Just give me One Good Year To get my feet back on the ground. I've been chasing grace; Grace ain't so easily found One bad hand can devil a man, chase him and carry him down. I've got to get out of here, just give me One Good Year!

10-02-2003, 01:50 PM	#4
Jedi X Hobbit Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Behind the East Wind Posts: 22	I seem to recall reading that towards the latter part of his career, JRR said that it was a "deeply Catholic structure" or something to that effect. I'll see if I can dig that up. __________________ That which was is that which will be; and that which is done is that which will be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

10-02-2003, 01:54 PM	#5
Gamigar Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: somewhere between here and there Posts: 116	I know he felt strongly against it, but it IS hard not to notice the similarities. For example; Sauron-Satan Nazgul-Demons And Tolkien himself said that Iluvitar was basically God, as in the God of the Bible. __________________ The road goes ever on and on Down from the door where it began Now far ahead the road has gone And I must follow if I can Pursuing it with eager feet Until it joins some larger way Where many paths and errands meet And wither then I can not say

10-02-2003, 02:13 PM	#6
Rosie Gamgee The Lovely Hobbit-Lass Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Bounded in a nut-shell Posts: 1,593	Well, every good story must have it's good and bad guys. I think one can pick out the 'Satan' and 'Demon' charaters in every epic, as well as the 'God'. I think that if one is of a one-god religion, and they write a mythology and a creation story for a fantasy realm, then I suppose their priciples would dictate a one-god mythology. __________________ It's New Years Day, just like the day before; Same old skies of grey, same empty bottles on the floor. Another year's gone by, and I was thinking once again, How can I take this losing hand and somehow win? Just give me One Good Year To get my feet back on the ground. I've been chasing grace; Grace ain't so easily found One bad hand can devil a man, chase him and carry him down. I've got to get out of here, just give me One Good Year!

10-02-2003, 02:17 PM	#7
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	It is a well known fact that Tolkien disliked allegory, and denied it being in his works. However, the entire Middle-earth concept is a mythology, and gods, angelic beings, and good and evil all play their parts in it. Although Tolkien disliked allegory, he was a deeply religious man, and it is true that perhaps some of it unintentionally slipped into his writing. I think it may show much more so, in the Silmarillion, rather than in LotRs. __________________ "Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

10-02-2003, 03:08 PM	#8
Sheeana Lord of the Pants Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 1,382	This has been done before. Just last year in fact. http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/show...e&pagenumber=2

10-02-2003, 03:26 PM	#9
Brimstone Sapling Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 6	LOTR/bible similarities Gandalf died and rose again- and returned in order to save the world. Hmmm...

10-02-2003, 04:06 PM	#10
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	Beowulf? The Eddas? I mean, is there a tree like that in the Bible? No, it's a different tree. I don't know about Ungoliant. I don't know if any other culture disparages spiders in that way. I don't see any Tom Bombadil in the Bible. I think if the Book of Enoch had been a part of the bible there might be some parallels, but somebody took it out and it hasn't been put back in. As to the Sauron / Lucifer parallel and such, I think that discussion should be in the Silmarillion forum. __________________ cya

10-02-2003, 04:41 PM	#12
nazgul prince Enting Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 58	It say's in the bible that Giants and Great heroes(Who were deseendant from the first humans and heavenly beings) once existed.Then noahs flood came along and destoyed everything.Kinda funny that are acually history as we no it starts at that point.Anyway shouldn't Morgoth=The Devil not sauron???

10-02-2003, 08:51 PM	#13
*IronParrot* Fowl Administrator Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Calgary or Edmonton, Canada Posts: 53,420	LOTR doesn't "=" anything directly, but it certainly presents some interesting parallels to analyse, considering that Tolkien still had a personal model of the natures of good and evil, and his Catholic background probably had at least some influence on that. Once again, it's the time-worn difference between allegory and applicability. I think Tolkien doesn't explore the grand worldview so much in LOTR as he does in The Silmarillion, so that's where Biblical influences or similarities may be significantly more pronounced. __________________ All of IronParrot's posts are guaranteed to be 100% intelligent and/or sarcastic, comprising no genetically modified content and tested on no cute furry little animals unless the SPCA is looking elsewhere. If you observe a failure to uphold this warranty, please contact a forum administrator immediately to receive a full refund on your Entmoot registration. Blog: Nick's Café Canadien

10-03-2003, 12:39 PM	#14
hectorberlioz Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lost in the Opera House Posts: 9,328	Jedi X is right. Tolkien said LotR was a "deeply catholic structure" __________________ ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide

10-03-2003, 03:03 PM	#15
Insidious Rex Quasi Evil Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Maryland, US Posts: 4,634	Like the bible was the ultimate source for things like good and bad characters. heroes and villans. supreme evil and demons. good and destiny and self sacrfice and reincarnation. All these themes can be found in sources and in uncounted unwritten tales and revelations that all predate the bible. they simply reflect the archatecture of our human interface with the world and the power of our imagination. theres no doubt tolkien was influenced by his faith but he wasnt writing a fantasy version of the bible. and the bible itself wasnt the first to have all these themes anyway. __________________ "People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

10-03-2003, 03:11 PM	#16
hectorberlioz Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lost in the Opera House Posts: 9,328	oh my god! of course not! the only thing i've said IS that he was influenced by his faith. __________________ ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide

10-03-2003, 10:27 PM	#17
Bombadillo "The Bomb" Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: all over the place Posts: 1,601	I know that he avoided religious references, but yaeh. I think that no matter how hard you try to avoid religion, it'll always show up while writing legends. If you get me. He wrote ancient mythical histories, and although they weren't based on Christianity, some ideal showed up inevitably. Either way, the Chronicles of Narnia a verily based on the Bible. That's irrelevant. __________________ Could it be that one path to enlightenment leads through insanity?

10-04-2003, 10:49 AM	#18
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	The events in the Sil-LotR are supposed to predate the Bible, though one is free to imagine the Biblical patriarchs running around over in Far Harad or Rhun. Tolkien was trying to re-create a mythology for England in the BoLT, and, like Topsy, it just grew. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

10-04-2003, 07:16 PM	#19
Jedi X Hobbit Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Behind the East Wind Posts: 22	"The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision." ~JRR That was it. Apparently he wrote this to a friend of his who was in the priesthood. His essay, "On Fairy stories", sheds light on his ideas on the use of myth, of which (of course), LOTR was intended to convey. __________________ That which was is that which will be; and that which is done is that which will be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

10-05-2003, 09:46 PM	#20
Aewionen Elf Lord Join Date: May 2003 Location: Strong Badia. I live in the tire. Posts: 791	I often think about the similarities between the Bible and LotR, but that might be because I am a Christian. The Nazgul do remind me of demons, where they were once men but where corrupted by the rings. Demons, which were (Someone please correct me if I am wrong) once angels, were corrupted by Satan. __________________ Aewionen, Maiden of Gondor `````````````````````````````` Home is behind the world ahead And there are many paths to tread Through shadow to the edge of night Until the stars are all alight. Mist and shadow Cloud and shade All shall fade All shall fade "I feel a slight tingling feeling... I think its affecting me." -Legolas during a drinking contest (EE ROTK)