11-19-2001, 09:08 PM | #1 |
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were the valar unfair?
from my understanding only those who made the trip could go to the west
but didn't cirdan stay behind because the valar asked him to? which was his orginal group,vanyar, noldar. teleri? if he stayed behind couldn't anyone sail west who made it to the falas? but weren't the morquendi AND their descendants forbidden to go west? were the valar being unfair? if no one could go west why was cirdan there?
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
11-19-2001, 10:32 PM | #2 |
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Re
Any elf was allowed to go to the West any time they wanted to, that's why Cirdan stayed behind so he could build the boats that would carry them to the blessed realm.
Even the exiled Noldor could return if they repented and were willing to be judged by Manwe. |
11-20-2001, 04:30 AM | #3 | ||
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Quote:
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Yet neither by wolf, nor by Balrog, nor by Dragon, would Morgoth have achieved his end, but for the treachery of Men. Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again. |
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11-20-2001, 07:05 PM | #4 |
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CS, not all Elves were allowed to take ship, only those belonging to a people that had gone on the Great Journey (the Eldar).
So you see, afro-elf, any Elda could take ship, or being that belonged in the Blessed Realm, or mortal Ringbearers. There was the rare exception of Gimli.
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11-20-2001, 08:19 PM | #5 |
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Legolas took ship. And he wasn't of the Eldar, but of the Sindar.
I think it was open to all elves. After all, they got there one way or another.
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11-20-2001, 09:27 PM | #6 | |
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Gimli and the Ringbearers did not go to the Blessed Realm so to speak, but to Tol-Eressea (Sp). It was not in Valinor, but had once been bathed in the light of the Two Trees |
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11-20-2001, 10:39 PM | #7 |
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I had actually forgotten that they went to Tol Eressea, but I am saved since that island in the Third Age was considered to be a part of Aman. If this is not said in The Silmarillion, then it is most certainly said in letters of Tolkien's.
Certainly the Exiled Noldor could return to Aman after the lifting of the Ban (save those who led them from that land, i.e., Galadriel as you said). All I said was that the Elves who never went on the Great Journey could not. This is said in The History of the Silmarillion, either in Laws and Customs Among the Eldar (which I believe you have access to) or Quendi and Eldar in War of the Jewels. They could not because they (the Avari, the Evair) had only chosen: to stay in Middle-earth, they refused the summons.
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11-21-2001, 12:08 AM | #8 |
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So, what happened to the ones that couldn't go to Aman? Did they fade? If they died, would they go to Aman after Mandos?
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11-21-2001, 01:43 AM | #9 |
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All Elves who didn't go to Aman eventually do fade, yes.
The spirits of the Elves who 'died' were invited to Mandos, it was open to them to refuse the invitation. I do believe in Laws and Customs it is said that Elves who returned among the living reported many Elves dwelling in Mandos, who had not desired to return. The implications were that many of the Avari did not desire to leave the Halls at all.
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11-21-2001, 07:07 AM | #10 |
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I personally think its unfair that the descendants of the avari did not get a choice
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
11-21-2001, 04:01 PM | #11 |
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It's said that, of the avari that died before the summons of orome and the great journey, almost none chose reincarnation.
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11-21-2001, 05:27 PM | #12 | |
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What was his 'ticket' for going? The small note in Appendices seem a bit thin on explanations? |
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11-21-2001, 06:33 PM | #13 | |
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11-23-2001, 10:35 AM | #14 |
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Originally posted by Kirinki54
What was his 'ticket' for going? The small note in Appendices seem a bit thin on explanations? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- By Sister Golden Hair I am not sure, but I think it was due to his deeds with the Fellowship, and his great friendship with Lego(l)as. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Actually it was actually due to the grace given through Galadriel, who was with the demise of Fëanor, the greatest of the Ñoldor. If you are wondering who was considered the greatest of the Eldar, it was Lúthien.
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11-23-2001, 01:32 PM | #15 |
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RE
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If you are wondering who was considered the greatest of the Eldar, it was Lúthien. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Only if Tolkien would have stuck to his latest ideas, we all know he changed his mind a lot |
11-24-2001, 05:42 PM | #16 | |
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Re: RE
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03-03-2003, 12:47 AM | #17 |
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didn't eonwe reissue a summons to all elves after the war of wrath
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
03-03-2003, 05:09 AM | #18 |
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Not to all Elves, but to the Eldar, that is all the Elves that set out on the great journey from Cuivienen, even if they forsook the march afterwards, and their descendants.
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03-05-2003, 06:44 AM | #19 |
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That sucks if your bone head ancestors said "no" ages ago without your consent.
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
03-05-2003, 07:41 AM | #20 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Agree. But that seems to be the deal in Middle-Earth. You bear the status and the consequences of the deeds of your ancestors, good or bad. At the council of Elrond, Aragorn said:
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