the most tragic heroes

afro-elf · 05-22-2002, 09:11 AM

the most tragic heroes

1st age Turin

2nd age ? i need more thought

3rd age denethor

Elvet · 05-22-2002, 09:43 AM

Turin also gets my vote for most tragic hero in the first age.
Second age - Amandil (Elendil's father) for keeping the true faith alive in Numenor when most of the population was under the influence of Sauron. And for bravely sailing to the west to try and get help.
Third age - Boromir , because ultimately he was valiant and heroic in his last fight to try to save Merry and Pippin.
I can't think of Denenthor as a hero, especially in light of Theoden and Boromir who both rose above their previous corruption.

Tar-Elendil · 05-22-2002, 06:53 PM

1st age turin
2nd age elendil the tall.
3rd..i havent a clue..i guess in a sense gandalf..just think that he didnt come back from dyin in moria

Eäráng · 05-22-2002, 06:57 PM

1st age: I have to go with Turin, too

2nd age: That would have to be Elendil

3rd age: That's Theoden, to be sure

Renille · 05-22-2002, 08:26 PM

1st age- Turin. Definitely Turin.

2nd age- Erendis (Aldarion's wife who turned bitter against all men once her husband kept going away...she's not exactly a hero, but she's a tragic figure.)

3rd age- Gollum

Cirdan · 05-22-2002, 08:39 PM

Isildur has got to be on the list. A hero who's tragic fall after the greatest victory over Sauron in battle is most cruel.

Mirahzi · 05-22-2002, 08:45 PM

"Tragic Fall?"

He got shot by orcs when he was betrayed by an evil ring that he should've destroyed.. Basically, he brought it upon himself.. And it wasn't really the "greatest victory over Sauron" considering he came back..

Rána Eressëa · 05-22-2002, 08:46 PM

1st age - Turin

2nd age - Elendil

3rd age - Boromir

Tar-Elendil · 05-22-2002, 08:57 PM

and neways..he would have to be a hero of the 2nd age rather than the 3rd. what did he do in the 3rd other than plant the white tree and delivering the south kingdom to meneldil? NOTHING. and he couldnt be a more tragic hero than his father by any means.
and nice pic Rána Eressëa

Cirdan · 05-22-2002, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mirahzi
"Tragic Fall?"

He got shot by orcs when he was betrayed by an evil ring that he should've destroyed.. Basically, he brought it upon himself.. And it wasn't really the "greatest victory over Sauron" considering he came back..

Did he understand the rings true nature? Sure, Elrond and I tried to get him to destroy it, but he wanted to use it to fight the evil. And who else defeated Sauron in direct combat? Sure, Gil-Galad struck some serious blows before he died, but ti was Isildur who had the wits to go for the ring. If he had not hte battle surely would have been lost. Is Sauron dead or is has he fallen from power? (I haven't read HoME on the fourth age yet, so don't tell me). It was a tragic fall in the Greek tradition - by hubris.

Tar-Elendil · 05-22-2002, 09:27 PM

isildur cant be ont he list..he cant top some of the people in the 2nd age..and he did almost nothing in the 3rd age cept lose the ring and die

Mirahzi · 05-22-2002, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cirdan

Did he understand the rings true nature? Sure, Elrond and I tried to get him to destroy it, but he wanted to use it to fight the evil. And who else defeated Sauron in direct combat? Sure, Gil-Galad struck some serious blows before he died, but ti was Isildur who had the wits to go for the ring. If he had not hte battle surely would have been lost. Is Sauron dead or is has he fallen from power? (I haven't read HoME on the fourth age yet, so don't tell me). It was a tragic fall in the Greek tradition - by hubris.

I don't think he wanted to use it to fight evil, since he thought he had already destroyed evil..
I hardly call that direct combat, considering Sauron had him pinned.. He only managed to cut off his finger, because Sauron got a bit overconfident.. After the Last Alliance, Sauron only fell from power.. he never died.

Cirdan · 05-22-2002, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mirahzi

I don't think he wanted to use it to fight evil, since he thought he had already destroyed evil..
I hardly call that direct combat, considering Sauron had him pinned.. He only managed to cut off his finger, because Sauron got a bit overconfident.. After the Last Alliance, Sauron only fell from power.. he never died.

Doesn't Sauron always fall due to overconfidence? What is with that guy? Why do they keep him broken sword at Rivendell if he is such a minor figure? They seemed to respect his deed. The best fighters come back when they are down.

It tough, Fingolfin is up there on my list. All the heros of the Silmarillion seem to be tragic figures. Are we looking for the most heroic with a tragic end or the hero with the most tragic end?

Rána Eressëa · 05-22-2002, 10:05 PM

Isildur is often taken as more purposely evil than accidently (especially in the movie). Isildur, like many, was mislead/deceived and drawn by the power of the ring. Very much like Boromir. So, how I see it, he pretty much has right to have a "Tragic Fall".

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 05-22-2002, 10:13 PM

First Age- Turin
Second Age- Gil-galad
Third Age- Boromir

afro-elf · 05-23-2002, 04:42 AM

Quote:

I can't think of Denenthor as a hero, especially in light of Theoden and Boromir who both rose above their previous corruption.

i used to dislike denethor but after i read more about his background i had more respect for him

Tar-Elendil · 05-23-2002, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Why do they keep him broken sword at Rivendell if he is such a minor figure?

because it was a precious heirloom to the line of Isildur. elrond took the shards of the sword at the wishes of the dúnedain. It meant something to the dunedain. probably showed the power they use to hold and their stand against sauron. i doubt to honor isildur, more elendil and westernesse.

Garina · 05-23-2002, 10:59 AM

Turin is definitely the tragic hero for the First Age. Funny how no one disputes that!

Gollum isn't a tragic hero, his heroism is more ironic. He saved Middle Earth because he lost his balance!

Radagast The Brown · 05-24-2002, 04:10 PM

I'll do some new "tragic falls"

1 age - Thingol
2 age - Isildor
3 age - Saruman

Tar-Elendil · 05-24-2002, 04:46 PM

i agree with you radagast..but thingol had it coming

05-22-2002, 09:11 AM	#1
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	the most tragic heroes the most tragic heroes 1st age Turin 2nd age ? i need more thought 3rd age denethor __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

05-22-2002, 09:43 AM	#2
Elvet Elven Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Orillia, Ontario Posts: 221	Turin also gets my vote for most tragic hero in the first age. Second age - Amandil (Elendil's father) for keeping the true faith alive in Numenor when most of the population was under the influence of Sauron. And for bravely sailing to the west to try and get help. Third age - Boromir , because ultimately he was valiant and heroic in his last fight to try to save Merry and Pippin. I can't think of Denenthor as a hero, especially in light of Theoden and Boromir who both rose above their previous corruption. __________________ "But do not despise the lore that has come down from distant years; for oft it may chance that old wives keep in memory word of things that once were needful for the wise to know."

05-22-2002, 06:53 PM	#3
Tar-Elendil Númenorean Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,050	1st age turin 2nd age elendil the tall. 3rd..i havent a clue..i guess in a sense gandalf..just think that he didnt come back from dyin in moria __________________ Why can we not be sober..

05-22-2002, 06:57 PM	#4
Eäráng Elven Warrior Join Date: May 2002 Location: Valinor Posts: 107	1st age: I have to go with Turin, too 2nd age: That would have to be Elendil 3rd age: That's Theoden, to be sure __________________ I am Eäráng the Great!!! Bow before my Silmaril!!! Iluvatar kills him Oh, drat it!

05-22-2002, 08:26 PM	#5
Renille Elven Lady of Speed-posting Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the cheese state Posts: 988	1st age- Turin. Definitely Turin. 2nd age- Erendis (Aldarion's wife who turned bitter against all men once her husband kept going away...she's not exactly a hero, but she's a tragic figure.) 3rd age- Gollum __________________ Oh the thinks you can think! Think and wonder and dream...far and wide as you dare! When your thinks have run dry, in the blink of an eye, there's another world there... (from Seussical the Musical. Listen to it...watch it...really.)

05-22-2002, 08:39 PM	#6
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	Isildur has got to be on the list. A hero who's tragic fall after the greatest victory over Sauron in battle is most cruel. __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

05-22-2002, 08:45 PM	#7
Mirahzi Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 1,286	"Tragic Fall?" He got shot by orcs when he was betrayed by an evil ring that he should've destroyed.. Basically, he brought it upon himself.. And it wasn't really the "greatest victory over Sauron" considering he came back.. __________________ "For the less even as for the greater there is some deed that he may accomplish but once only; and in that deed his heart shall rest." - Fëanor

05-22-2002, 08:46 PM	#8
Rána Eressëa The Rogue Elf Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,722	1st age - Turin 2nd age - Elendil 3rd age - Boromir

05-22-2002, 08:57 PM	#9
Tar-Elendil Númenorean Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,050	and neways..he would have to be a hero of the 2nd age rather than the 3rd. what did he do in the 3rd other than plant the white tree and delivering the south kingdom to meneldil? NOTHING. and he couldnt be a more tragic hero than his father by any means. and nice pic Rána Eressëa __________________ Why can we not be sober..

05-22-2002, 09:27 PM	#11
Tar-Elendil Númenorean Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,050	isildur cant be ont he list..he cant top some of the people in the 2nd age..and he did almost nothing in the 3rd age cept lose the ring and die __________________ Why can we not be sober..

05-22-2002, 10:05 PM	#14
Rána Eressëa The Rogue Elf Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,722	Isildur is often taken as more purposely evil than accidently (especially in the movie). Isildur, like many, was mislead/deceived and drawn by the power of the ring. Very much like Boromir. So, how I see it, he pretty much has right to have a "Tragic Fall".

05-22-2002, 10:13 PM	#15
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	First Age- Turin Second Age- Gil-galad Third Age- Boromir

05-23-2002, 10:59 AM	#18
Garina Elf Lord Join Date: May 2002 Location: Tring, Herts, England Posts: 582	Turin is definitely the tragic hero for the First Age. Funny how no one disputes that! Gollum isn't a tragic hero, his heroism is more ironic. He saved Middle Earth because he lost his balance! __________________ Entmoot Resident Bard #2 Wielder of the shiny fire extinguisher Worshipper of the divine cheesecake Hamsters and Rangers everywhere, rejoice!!! Minsc, Baldur's Gate 2 Children, don't take drugs. Become a pop star, then people give them to you for free!!! - Billy Mack, Love Actually. While I'm sure the nice people from the local archery club meant well, a moment's consideration would have made them realise that giving my friend and I lethal weapons was probably not a good idea! Dammit, eyeliner and dreadlocks should not be that sexy!

05-24-2002, 04:10 PM	#19
Radagast The Brown Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Israel Posts: 6,975	I'll do some new "tragic falls" 1 age - Thingol 2 age - Isildor 3 age - Saruman __________________ Lalala... poof! AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

05-24-2002, 04:46 PM	#20
Tar-Elendil Númenorean Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,050	i agree with you radagast..but thingol had it coming __________________ Why can we not be sober..

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