03-11-2002, 04:01 AM | #1 |
Enting
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the breaking of the original fellowship
i am just re-reading the silmarillion, and was struck by a section in the 'valaquenta':
". . . Among them Nine were of chief power and residence; but one is removed from their number and Eight remain, the Aratar, the High Ones of Arda: Manwe and Varda, Ulmo, Yavanna and Aule, Mandos, Nienna, and Orome. . . ." Melkor(Morgoth), of course, is the one removed - his downfall brought on by his own self-pride and greed turning eventually to complete evil. "He began with the desire of Light, but when he could not possess it for himself alone, he descended through fire and wrath into a great burning, down into Darkness." these passages started me thinking about the fellowship of the 9 in the LOTR, and especially about Boromir. I was wondering if this fellowship of the third age was a re-cycling of the original 'fellowship', and if by extension, there would be one more moment of grace for Morgoth and a possibility for redemption as seen in Boromir's recanting of his selfish actions which stirred up trouble and grief for the other members of the LOTR fellowship. what do you think?
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03-11-2002, 04:22 AM | #2 |
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don't have much to add but it is an interesting thought
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03-11-2002, 08:45 AM | #3 |
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Well, when you read Myths Transformed in The History of Middle-Earth volume 10 Morgoth's Ring you will find that Melkor had a chance to reconcile with the Valar. The trembling point was at the end of the war of powers when he discovered, that he was no longer able to daunt Manwe with his eyes. But in contrast to Boromir Melkor did not relent. He sticked to his way of terror and war and only feigned piece and friendship to the Valar.
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03-11-2002, 09:32 AM | #4 |
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This is a little philosophical, but...Maybe that's what Morgoth did to Middle-Earth. He made the free peoples doomed to repeat this loop over and over again, and Boromir's death was a triumph, because he repented.
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03-11-2002, 11:51 AM | #5 |
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Well history repetes its self in more ways then one
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03-11-2002, 12:13 PM | #6 |
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So is Sam Gamgee Mandos?
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03-11-2002, 01:10 PM | #7 | |
Enting
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Quote:
is that even a possibility? or did his descent into Darkness & Discord drive all the light and harmony from him?
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03-11-2002, 01:14 PM | #8 | |
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Quote:
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03-11-2002, 01:20 PM | #9 |
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id say mandros would be gandalf or aragorn
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03-11-2002, 01:41 PM | #10 | |
Enting
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Quote:
Manwe ----- Gandalf Ulmo -------- Frodo Mandos ---- Aragorn Varda ------ Legolas Aule -------- Gimli Yavanna -- Sam Nienna ----- Pippin Orome ----- Merry
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03-11-2002, 01:49 PM | #11 |
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i like that comparison very nice
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03-11-2002, 08:09 PM | #12 |
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I was only half-heartedly making fun of the idea. I am actually interested in the parallels between the Fellowship and the Aratar.
I like your comparisons too, only I don't Pippin really goes with Nienna. Gandalf or Frodo would be more fitting, though Frodo is good "as" Ulmo and Gandalf "as" Manwe (Gandalf in fact served Manwe and Varda). But it is probably the best that can be done. Frodo could be put with Nienna and Legolas with Ulmo too, but this leaves Pippin with Varda.
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03-11-2002, 10:24 PM | #13 |
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who created the dwarves though i think gimil would be best suited with him
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03-11-2002, 10:28 PM | #14 | |
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Quote:
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03-11-2002, 11:01 PM | #15 | |
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03-11-2002, 11:01 PM | #16 |
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No one is all evil, at least not in Tolkien's world. In Catholicism (as I understand it, as I'm not Catholic) you can always find redemption.
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03-13-2002, 12:08 AM | #17 |
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Yeps, you're right Markedel. I am a Catholic, and we do believe that God always gives people second, third, millionth chances if they are truly seeking forgiveness.
With the Pippin/Nienna thing... I almost think Pippin could be Orome and Merry could be Nienna. Merry's alot more serious and melencholy than Pip. ( On the side, wasn't Nessa one of the Valar, also? Or was she a Maia? I can't remember.)
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03-13-2002, 01:31 AM | #18 |
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There are six Valar not listed here: Vairë the Weaver, Estë the Healer, Lórien Master of Visions and Dreams, Vána the Everyoung, Tulkas and Nessa. But there were 8 chiefs of the Valar (nine counting Melkor), who are called the Aratar: Manwe, Varda, Ulmo, Aule, Yavanna, Mandos, Nienna and Orome.
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03-13-2002, 03:15 AM | #19 |
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I'm preety sure Melkor is the embodiment of evil just so it has a name. Either that or he was suffering from painful itching and swelling. Ulmo was, at first, swayed by Melkor, but later proved the most active of the Valar. Frodo is a symbol of innocence and purity. Resisting the ring became overwhelming, and but for gollum, who knows how it may have ended (except JRRT).
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03-13-2002, 10:00 AM | #20 |
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Look I have read the books and I see where you are coming from but i just don't think frodo is a good ulmo basically because ulmo is great and frodo is irritating i'm sorry to offend you but thats how i feel surely aragorn would be more ulmo being of numenorean descent and i also apologise for my punctuation or rarther lack of it
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