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01-26-2009, 12:01 AM | #1 | ||
Elf Lord
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Lewis vs Tolkien vs Pullman: Death Match in the Cage!
Mods, I suppose this could just as easily fit in the Tolkien sub-forum.
Pullman on Tolkien: Quote:
Quote:
http://maryvictrix.wordpress.com/200...izing-tolkien/
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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01-26-2009, 12:36 AM | #2 |
Elf Lord
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Pullman as the referee, huh? Or are his views up to a fight?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
01-26-2009, 05:42 AM | #3 |
Elf Lord
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Groovy quotes, GM.
I would broadly agree, I think, though only if you see the books as moral explorations. LOTR isn't, as he says, though you could argue that it's trivial to even consider it in this way. And I think he misses the way in which Sam and Frodo develop throughout the book, which is about putting morals into action. |
01-26-2009, 10:33 AM | #4 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Hm, while Pullman's trilogy was okay, I hardly think it has enough 'staying power' for it to be set as rival to Tolkien's and Lewis' work, just as I'm inclined to consider Pullman as author a lightweight too, compared to the others.
Tolkien and Lewis were also more subtle in working religious themes in their work. What I remember mostly of the Golden Compass trilogy was that the Church was the big bad. I don't quite recall noticing any other moral theme of importance. In short: IMO Tolkien and Lewis would finish Pullman off just in time for tea and crumpets.
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01-26-2009, 11:19 AM | #5 | |
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
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Quote:
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; |
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01-26-2009, 11:33 AM | #6 | ||
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: By the shores of cuivinien
Posts: 694
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Who is this guy?
Quote:
Quote:
Sounds like an inconsequential author griping at his betters.
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; |
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01-26-2009, 11:37 AM | #7 |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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Yes, and Faramir who wanted to take the ring!
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01-27-2009, 06:39 AM | #8 |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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Calling The Lord of the Rings as trivial is silly Of course Tolkien is influenced by Christianity, he was after all a Christian and his life and views of the world will ultimately colour such a massive piece of writing that devises an entire story of Creation, age-spans of many thousands of years and a fight between the good and the evil. It's only natural.
But what Tolkien does so brilliantly, which is anything but trivial (it's a work of genious) is write a story that anyone can relate to, whether she is religious or not, born in the 50s or born today. There are some eternal conflicts of human nature (examplified through a range of races in the Lord of the Rings whom all are 'human'). There are some fundamental truths that Tolkien deals with and realities of the world like friendship, sacrifice, war, co-existence, isolation, fear, common purpose, the decay (and rebirth) of the environment and the passage of time which few have managed to combine so eloquently in one work of fiction. I like the Lord of the Rings not only because it's a really good story but because Tolkien exposes the detached, grim reality that comes with the destruction of the natural world (Isengard and Mordor), and that it does not lead to peace or happiness but war and egoism. Through the lives of the Lorien-elves, the Ents and Tom Bombadil in the Old Forest we see that working with the natural world leads to harmony in contrast to an arrogant belief that one can override and use the natural world to one's own choosing. Here's I think a Catholic, or at least Christian influence. There probably have been many persons and way of lives throughout history, here and there, that have had as a life-rule to coexist and adapt to nature, not try to work against it or violently uproot it, but Tolkien was a Christian and he may have looked in that direction as well as into the worldview of the mythologies he studied. Although we have environmentalism today and a wider global awareness of this issue (despite it rarely being followed..), Tolkien might well have been influenced by St. Francis of Aussi, the 13th century Catholic friar that advised the protection of animals and nature as a Christian deed, or Jean Calvin, the 16th century theologian who founded Calvinism, who stated that although "nature is created for humans we must nurture it". I think it likely that such views in combination with Tolkiens love for the English forest shows an example of a Christian influence that Tolkien has universalized and personified with the likes of Tom Bombadil's non-ownership, the elves' enchanted relationship and near-worship of the forests, along with the age-old herder Ents that roam Fangorn forest When Pullman argues that there is no big debate on the tough questions I think he fires in the wrong direction. When Tolkien exposes the barbaric industry that Sarumann creates in Isengard and the destruction of the green landscape that existed there he may not need to point out that it is not a good thing (we all understand that), but who doesn't realise the striking parallel to our own world of the non-stop industrialised machines whom work day and night, without pause, and who consume the natural world ever faster until it becomes unsustainable. Tolkien shows with Isengard how bad it can go, and although everyone realises Sarumann has become corrupt, the wizard himself does not view it this way. He wants order, power, wealth and he wants it quickly and it's dismayful to acknowledge that the same drive for natural resources and ever more demands on the natural world was and is the great story behind the story of the 20th century. Pullman sees no interesting 'provocation' or discussion arise from the Lord of the Rings, I see it completely different.
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"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath. Come along! Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare." Last edited by Coffeehouse : 01-27-2009 at 06:51 AM. |
01-27-2009, 09:38 AM | #9 |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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I totally agree with CH. Especially the last paragraph.
Gotta run! (Class in 20 mins!)
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01-27-2009, 11:30 PM | #10 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
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Hmmmm... was thinking more about the theological aspects of it. Tolkien claimed LoTR to be not only a Christian work, but essentially a Catholic one, a claim that, as far as I can see, is happily repeated by Catholics commentators while being studiously ignored by Protestants.
I must admit that I've never been interested enough to actually delve into the doctrinal manifestations: " "To sheep other sheep no doubt appear different," laughed Lindir. "Or to shepherds. But Mortals have not been our study. We have other business." Other than the obvious mariolatry of singing hymns to the Queen of Heaven, but I was interested to see Pullman making this point. Pullman, while famously an atheist, drew his inspiration from John Milton, the great Protestant and anti-Royalist. I would have liked to hear what instances in the Narnia books he regarded as being specifically Protestant, but unfortunately the interviewer didn't follow up and I haven't been able to find any elaboration elsewhere. Tolkien was known to have to have greatly disliked Narnia for literary reasons, but there has been some discussion of the conflict between and Lewis and him on doctrinal grounds: Quote:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...n21130448/pg_9 This essay, by a Catholic writer, discusses some of the reasons Tolkien would have found 'Letters to Malcolm' " distressing and in parts horrifying" - basically, he sees a lot of attacks on Catholicism in it- and speculates how, in retrospect anyway, Tolkien might have seen some of this in the Narnia books. The commentary Tolkien wrote was called "Ulsterior Motives" (get it?-presumably this was just a working title) - but for some unknown reason has yet to be published by the Tolkien estate, which seems to have found time to publish every other half-scribbled scrap of paper he ever wrote- stirring up trouble with the Lewisites bad for business? Also interesting that Tolkien says "as much of my work was outside his." AFAIK Lewis had nothing but enthusiastic praise for Tolkien's published works, which would only have been the Hobbit and LotR, though I've read elsewhere that he privately thought Tolkien's poetry was pretty terrible- with which I heartily agree.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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01-28-2009, 12:34 AM | #11 |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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Perhaps later in this semester I can help out in the JRRT/LOTR/Catholicism department, since my Lit. class is focusing on his work.
We've only just started, so nothing revelatory has been revealed .
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01-28-2009, 03:28 AM | #12 |
Elf Lord
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Aww, come on, nothing spoils a good discussion like someone who actually knows what they're talking about
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
01-29-2009, 11:31 PM | #13 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Tolkien realized that the most important thing about life, regardless of the big picture, is people. Lewis was a bit more obsessed with the big picture. Not that there is anything wrong with that.
Pullman is just grumpy.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
01-29-2009, 11:52 PM | #14 |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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And the great thing is that--despite each man's big differences with eachother--I can appreciate all three's fiction. Tolkien with his resplendant history, CSL with his heart-warming allegory, and Pullman in all his grumpy glory, to use your description BJ .
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02-03-2009, 04:44 PM | #15 |
Elf Lord
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Here's an interesting 1o minutes on Tolkien and words and their meanings with some reference to Lewis:
http://www.marshillaudio.org/resourc...AJ-49-Wood.mp3 Pullman not included per se but I think he would fill the bill as postmodernity product and facilitator.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
06-17-2010, 12:55 PM | #16 |
Princess of the Noldor (and Administrative Empress of the Lone Islands)
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Is there a button or a link anywhere to report spam posts?
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06-18-2010, 05:15 AM | #17 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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There should be a little triangle, like a traffic sign, under the name of each member that will allow you to notify the mods and bring the post under their attention. Or else there's a thread in the Feedback forum where you can alert mods to spammers as well.
Spam post and spammer deleted.
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06-18-2010, 09:10 PM | #18 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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You mean this topic, or just inked in general?
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
06-19-2010, 12:12 AM | #19 |
Elf Lord
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Good one, BJ!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
06-26-2010, 02:14 AM | #20 |
Princess of the Noldor (and Administrative Empress of the Lone Islands)
Join Date: Apr 2008
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Now that the spam post has been removed, it looks like I was complaining about inked, doesn't it?
Edit: And now that we're on a new page, you need to go back to look - and to read the newest on-topic post ...
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Signature picture art - Bard the Bowman - by vigshane Avatar art - Footsteps of Spring (a young Luthien) - by Henning Janssen Last edited by Varnafindë : 06-26-2010 at 02:17 AM. |
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