05-02-2006, 08:24 PM | #1 | |
Elven Warrior
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Did Sauron imprison the Moria Balrog?
In Appendix A of the Lord of the Rings it says that the Balrog of Moria was “roused from sleep” or released from prison by the Dwarves. It also states that the Balrog had been there since the end of the First Age. I can think of no other examples of someone sleeping for over 5000 years in the history of Middle Earth. This option seems very unlikely to me, so I am going to focus on imprisonment.
Who could be found in this part of Middle Earth early in the Second Age capable of imprisoning the Balrog? Galadriel? Maybe, but she and Celeborn didn’t seem to be aware of what was the evil force in Moria when the Fellowship came to Lorien. Who else? I would guess only Sauron. Here is the scenario I would like to propose. The Balrog escapes from Morgoth’s defeat at the end of the First Age, while Sauron is captured. Later, Sauron escapes and comes further east with thoughts of becoming the new Dark Lord. The logical thing for him to do is search for the strongest help available, the Balrog, who he finds hiding under the Misty Mountains. The Balrog refuses to accept Sauron as it’s new master. It may be afraid of the Valar, want to be it’s own boss, or have another reason. Sauron’s reaction isn’t to kill the Balrog, but to imprison it. This would seem to be a much more cruel punishment, a fitting revenge for someone like Sauron. Much later, the Balrog is released by the Dwarves. It kills many of the inhabitants of Moria and takes possession of the place as it’s new home. Why doesn’t it leave Moria and seek vengeance against Sauron? Because it is scared. It doesn’t want to be stuck in a stone box for another few thousand years. The Balrog would rather stay in a strong place (probably much like the Witch King in Angmar) so it can defend itself against Sauron. Quote:
There is also the Balrog’s fight with Gandalf. Apparently Gandalf took the upper hand during the fight and the Balrog fled from him. It ran and ran from the roots of the mountains all the way up the Endless Stair to the peak of Silvertine. It fled all this way, got outside where it could escape and did what? It turned and fought Gandalf to the death?! Does that make any sense? I would guess that it was so afraid of leaving it’s stronghold and becoming vulnerable to Sauron, that it was forced to face Gandalf again. Gandalf probably fully expected the Balrog to jump or fly off (I am not trying to start that debate) at this point. I have a few other points but this is becoming a long post, so I will leave it at that for now. Last edited by CAB : 05-02-2006 at 08:28 PM. |
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05-02-2006, 08:30 PM | #2 |
Dreamweaver
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BRILLIANT! that makes sense! sauron would be quite mad if the balrog didn't help, imagine TWO fallen maia fighting in ME! i doubt he forsaw how much death and havoc the balrog would cause, but it worked in the end...except that gandalf came back!
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05-03-2006, 04:06 AM | #3 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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You make an interesting case, CAB, but I am not yet convinced.
It is said that at the end of the First Age the surviving Balrogs fled and hid in the dark places of the world. The Balrog were originally Maiar so I can certainly take magic into account for 'sleeping' so long. They're immortal so they don't have to worry about time. They can afford to wait as long as they like. The last war against Morgoth must definitely have been very frightening for Morgoth's side, which I can quite understand. After all, the dragons were nearly wiped out, the Balrogs too were defeated (and while their numbers were subject to change in Tolkien's drafts, not many survived whatever their original number was.) and Morgoth's armies scattered or crushed. I don't mind assuming this spooked the Balrog enough to go and hide and don't show his face for millennia in fear of being hunted. Taking a millennia long nap is then quite a good decision, IMO. You don't get bored in between, you don't draw attention to yourself, you don't have to eat and who knows, in a few thousands of years everyone has forgotten about you and nobody will be looking for you anymore. Sleeping is one thing, waking is another. I doubt even as a Maia of fire, the Balrog would have an alarm clock. So propably he slept soundly (I was going to say like a baby but it doesn't really fit a Balrog) until woken. About the prison. One way I'd say it could be done by the Valar's forces, if they spotted the Balrog fleeing and supposing they found its hiding place. It is possible that they could not draw the Balrog from its hiding place, after all this was before the Khazad-dum was dug, right?, so there wouldn't have been much tunnels. If they couldn't draw him out, imprisonment might have been the best course and they could have sealed him off, deep into his hiding place. But since nothing in writing speaks of the Valar and their forces imprisoning a Balrog, this is of course just a theory. Although, since the whole account of the war with Melkor is rather sketchy, while it should have lasted years and changed the land tremendously, it is possible that a lot of things happened in the fight that weren't written and thus we don't know about. But still, if the Valar had imprisoned the Balrog, or whether Sauron imprisoned the Balrog, I can't put it past me that Tolkien wouldn't have written at least a short mention of it. He wrote of Balrogs fleeing and hiding to explain the Moria Balrog, why wouldn't he have added who imprisoned him too? Which is why I'm inclined to believe that no one imprisoned him knowingly. After the war, the land must have been in quite some upheaval, after all large portions of land sank beneath the waves. Geologically if a portion of the land goes down, another usually goes up and forms mountains. And in 5000 years I'm assuming quite some tectonic and geological activity goes on. I think the Balrog merely got trapped in his hiding place. I've gotten so wordy that I'll give my view about the fight with Gandalf and the absense of attack from Moria on Lorien later.
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05-03-2006, 11:59 AM | #4 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Very interesting indeed CAB.
I agree that the Barlog has been imprisoned, intentionally or unintentionally. There is no way to know if it really happened the way you proposed, or by one of the ways described by Earniel. I suppose that, most likely, the Barlog made it from Angband at the beginning of the War and hid in a deep hole out of fear and then got incarcerated by falling rocks during the earthquakes of the War of Wraith, when the whole Baleriand was destroyed. Quote:
But I agree that the Barlog was NOT in Sauron's service. |
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05-03-2006, 12:40 PM | #5 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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I like the idea CAB.
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05-03-2006, 12:41 PM | #6 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Though the "geological" imprisonment that Eärniel mentioned is how I always imagined it when I read the book.
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05-03-2006, 06:07 PM | #7 | |
Elven Warrior
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Thank you to everybody for their replies. I would say that the geological explanation is possible, but I think it is less likely than the Sauron explanation.
First of all, Moria was in existence in the First Age. Quote:
Also, you will recall that the Balrog was “trapped” by a rock fall after the struggle with Gandalf at the door. Now maybe this was a relatively minor rock fall and maybe not. Regardless, it certainly didn’t take the Balrog long to escape from it. There is also Tolkien’s choice of the word “prison”. This can be used to describe a situation where someone is unintentionally trapped, but more often it indicates a person purposely being held. One other point. If the Balrog had been trapped by accident, we might think it would be eager to leave it’s underground lair, where such a thing could happen again. Yet we see just the opposite. These points (and I still have some others) along with the rest of the argument don’t prove anything. But they make me lean towards the idea that Sauron imprisoned the Balrog. |
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05-04-2006, 12:38 AM | #8 |
Elf Lord
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Great Theory,CAB!
And quite believable.But I have to agree with Earniel. Most probable cause is Balrog's unintentional "imprisonment" at the time of Beleriand's destruction. BTW, why he would want to leave comfortable tunnels of Moria:quiet, warm and mosquitos are not biting? |
05-04-2006, 03:16 AM | #9 | ||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Quote:
In Moria the Balrog was suppreme ruler when he had kicked out the Dwarves. No one came to contest his will and rule until the Fellowship stumbled in. He didn't have to leave Moria, he had everything he could need right there. Servants and food in the orcs, fire below and perpetual darkness to dwell in. Sounds like Balrog heaven to me. That, I think, is also the reason why he stood and fought Gandalf instead of fleeing. As soon as he managed to rekindle his flame, he stood again a chance against the wizard. He didn't want to leave out of fear, he just liked his little kingdom too much. Quote:
The Balrog strikes me as less a professional tunnel-maker, his way of getting deep below the Mines must have been a lot more rickety.
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05-04-2006, 05:14 AM | #10 | ||||
Elven Warrior
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Quote:
Quote:
Maybe the Balrog’s power increased when it rekindled it’s flame, but if so it apparently wasn’t enough. Actually I think that it’s external appearance (amount of flame) was due in part to it’s internal mood. It may have burst into flame because it decided it had to attack Gandalf instead of deciding to attack Gandalf after it managed to rekindle itself. Quote:
Quote:
Thank you for the discussion Earniel. |
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05-04-2006, 12:22 PM | #11 |
Elf Lord
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Yay, another beezer thread! Well done CAB!
Something that is missing from the discussion so far is the residual will of Melkor/Morgoth. In the Music, Melkor's was the greatest voice, and as a result, his themes ran throughout all of the world. Evil was inherent in all things, even after Morgoth was cast out into the void. There is an explicit statement somewhere in the Sil to this effect. Throughout LOTR there are references to evil things "stirring" as if in a co-ordinated fashion, and I think this is tied in with Morgoth's universal dial tone for evil. Now, I can't remember what it says about how the Balrog was woken; there is some vague recollection that it may have already been awake when "released" by the dwarves. But anyway, I suspect that its biorhythms were supposed to be associated with changes in the dial tone. Other stuff that might relate would be the (can't remember what it's called) battle where the Valar captured Melkor prior to the Kinslaying. IIRC, balrogs and other creatures successfully hid in the deepest pits of Utumno (or Thangorodrim, can't remember which one). Then, when Melkor took one in the guts in Lammoth, they were roused and sallied forth. So I tend to go with Earniel's account: the balrog hid in the deepest place he could find and went to sleep until the fuss died down. When he woke up, he liked the decor and yet could tell that it wasn't the time to go a-pillaging. |
05-04-2006, 04:53 PM | #12 | ||||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Quote:
But it doesn't explain why and how Sauron would find the Balrog. How did he know he was there? And why would he think the Balrog would obey him? Quote:
Quote:
There is no mention of the extent of the damage Khazad-dum sustained, if it sustained any at all. At this point we're well into the speculation zone. But I think it stands to reason that a)a well contructed tunnel has more chances of surviving some geological movement then whatever way the Balrog could dig himself. b) A tunnel going deep down has more chances at being completely blocked and c) that if the damage to Khazad-dum had been too extensive the Dwarves wouldn't have bothered. Unless the presense of True-Silver was enough motive for the Dwarves not to return to their Blue Mountain-realms and repare their Khazad-dum dwelling whatever the cost. Quote:
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05-05-2006, 06:07 PM | #13 | |
Elven Warrior
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Quote:
When I was first considering this question, I thought (and still think) the point you make about the Balrog waiting for Morgoth was the best argument for the “sleepy Balrog” theory. Like you said, the Balrogs waited for Morgoth after his first capture by the Valar. I don’t know if they were sleeping though. I prefer the idea I gave above, but this is a valid viewpoint. Earniel, I think you and I will have to agree to disagree on this one. I am glad you enjoyed the topic though. |
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05-06-2006, 05:44 AM | #14 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Quote:
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05-06-2006, 09:52 AM | #15 |
Elf Lord
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Beezer is a beezer word.
I would just rephrase it slightly. Rather than say "waiting for Morgoth", I would say "tuned in with the background hum of Morgoth's evil will". I suppose I kinda think of balrogs as being less calculating or independent of intellect than the likes of Sauron. Just thought: "Waiting for Morgoth". Beckett goes Middle Earth! Three balrogs sitting around waiting for Morgoth to turn up? |
05-06-2006, 10:09 AM | #16 | |
Elf Lord
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Beezer:
Main Entry: nose Part of Speech: noun Definition: organ Synonyms: adenoids, banana, bazoo, beak*, Beezer, bill*, bow, bugle, honker, horn*, muzzle*, nares, neb, nostrils, nozzle, olfactory nerves, pecker, proboscis, prow, schnoz*, schnozzola, smeller*, sneezer*, sniffer*, snoot*, snout*, snuffer*, stem, trunk, whiffer* yes!! We need more threads about Banana's with adenoids and big nozzles! Well done CAB! The one and only, The Gaffer: Quote:
I like it! I kinda agree about the Balrogs, in general. Sort of Morgoth's beasts- Mia hunting dogs. *damn! - have this Strong mental image of the three of them, hunched up over a smoky wooden ill-lit table, smoking, drinkin and playing cards now ...* Best all, BB Last edited by Butterbeer : 05-06-2006 at 10:12 AM. |
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05-06-2006, 11:11 AM | #17 | |
Elven Warrior
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Quote:
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05-06-2006, 11:24 AM | #18 |
Elf Lord
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...and don't forget Gor's legendary stone hurtling down the well and cascading down, down, ever down into the deeps ... at last, far far below the ground and in the deadly dark to fall...
*kerplonk* ..right on the balrog's head! That would have put him in a bad mood - i am sure of it ... Ps - was he put there by Sau? No way! oops- gotta go! best, BB |
05-10-2006, 01:20 PM | #19 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
However, I don't think we need to see a very specific "barometer of evilness" to make sense of this. BB has got it: the suggestion that balrogs are less "intelligent" or independent of mind than the likes of Sauron, more like dogs of war. |
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05-10-2006, 02:50 PM | #20 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Quote:
So Barlogs can be pretty intelligent. And the fact that the Barlog didn't choose to come and serve Sauron, only shows some free-thinking and independance. |
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