10-14-2004, 03:40 AM | #1 | |
Hobbit
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Norway
Posts: 23
|
A question to ponder
One of the most magnificent questions I have come across regarding the importance of Tolkien's works was posted at TTF two years ago. I don't know if it has been posted here, but if it has, please forgive me for posting this:
Quote:
__________________
Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! Auta i lómë! |
|
10-14-2004, 05:49 AM | #2 |
Fëanorophobic
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the pages of a book
Posts: 1,417
|
A few things I don't get:
-When you say that the Bible is much shorter than Tolkien's work, which part(s) of the Bible do you mean exactly? Because the OT and the NT put together would be much longer than any Tolkien book I know of. -Just because the Bible is shorter, how does that make it "shallower" than Tolkien's work? After these 2 questions, I think my opinion is quite clear. The Bible has many layers of meaning to it, too. Much more layers than any human work could have. |
10-14-2004, 06:51 AM | #3 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Norway
Posts: 23
|
It isn't easy for me to reply on behalf of the original poster, but from the description as much shorter, I take it that he refers to the New Testament.
But of course, all of Tolkiens works put together does amount to quite a lot of pages. Anyway, I don't think that the length of the works would be crucial when determining what is true and what is fiction. I think that how the works are written would be the determining factor. At least if the reader is completely unfamiliar with the works, and is able to read them with an unbiased attitude. As the original poster said, the world of Tolkien is better described in depth historically.
__________________
Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! Auta i lómë! |
10-14-2004, 09:19 AM | #4 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
|
I'm certainly biased, so I would HOPE they would choose the Bible.
Hard for me to be objective on this one, so I'll just watch a bit.
__________________
My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
10-14-2004, 09:36 AM | #5 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
|
If these aliens had only the Bible, the Koran, and LOTR?
If their universal language translator worked for Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, Arabic, English, and the subtleties of Elvish? I think they would discover that the Bible was the original and the Koran and LOTR derivative. This assumes they are objective and submit the works to analysis on the multiple levels of letters, words, phrases, concepts, development, and "moral of the story" comparisons. Equal attention to analysis on all levels to each book (eg, they all get source criticism, redaction criticism, etc).
__________________
Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
10-14-2004, 10:43 AM | #6 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: On the Bay of Belfalas
Posts: 1,125
|
I agree with inked. I think any impartial observer would consider Tolkien's work to be derivative of the Bible. I won't comment on the Koran, being biased.
__________________
"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
10-14-2004, 11:51 AM | #7 |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
excellent question!!
i think an alien observer would view them all as fiction... as i do one would assume that an alien race would either be somewhat existentialist... in which case they would see all creationist-type literature as "human" musings on what the universe is all about... or they would have there own sacred texts, and much like how a catholic sees a hindu as getting the details wrong, and vice versa, they would have the same built-in bias all that said, i think the important part this question brings to mind is that tolkien's work is deep enough, detailed enough, and complete enough, to be considered to be just as much a valid belief system as other sacred texts by a neutral observer imagine if 'hitchhiker's guide' was all that remained
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
10-14-2004, 11:53 AM | #8 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
|
Quote:
__________________
My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
|
10-14-2004, 12:55 PM | #9 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Israel
Posts: 6,975
|
I think it depends about the aliens though - if they have religions in their own planet, I'd guess they can realise the Bible (and Koran maybe, don't know) are religious, while Tolkien isn't.. from the obvious reason, that in the Bible God is mentioned more times than Eru in LotR, and is described as one who controls everything that happens. Iluvatar us mentioned twice in LotR.
I also think that Tolkien's stories - like LotR - are a bit more fiction than the Bible. Think about it... will you find a magical powerful ring in the Biuble, or sometthing similar? Or a magical beast (dragon, balrog) created by the evil character? Or a huge spider? |
10-14-2004, 01:13 PM | #10 |
The Lovely Hobbit-Lass
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Bounded in a nut-shell
Posts: 1,593
|
Well, there's the dragon in Revelation.
Um, this is interesting. I think that Tolkien's works would probably be taken as some of history, perhaps. Then again, if they could translate Tolkien's words, then perhaps they could translate the copyright page at the beginning that says 'fiction'. I think the Bible would be taken as a religious guide, because it clearly is. Much of the Old Testament is rules and regulations. Almost all of the New Testament is instructions on following Christ's example. I have never read the Quran, so I cannot speculate on that.
__________________
It's New Years Day, just like the day before; Same old skies of grey, same empty bottles on the floor. Another year's gone by, and I was thinking once again, How can I take this losing hand and somehow win? Just give me One Good Year To get my feet back on the ground. I've been chasing grace; Grace ain't so easily found One bad hand can devil a man, chase him and carry him down. I've got to get out of here, just give me One Good Year! |
10-15-2004, 04:51 AM | #11 | |
Hobbit
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Norway
Posts: 23
|
Quote:
__________________
Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! Auta i lómë! |
|
10-15-2004, 07:55 AM | #12 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 221
|
It is unfortunate that the original question focuses only on the Bible and Koran. Being someone who has no affinity with either (being brought up on Eastern i.e. Indian, philosophy) i think it narrows the scope somewhat. My main reason for this is that i have found the bible and Koran full of dogma, laws and statements which do not allow (on the whole) debate. "This is the story and it is true" type of thing (btw i have read both the Bible and Koran). In contrast, Indian philosophy (as opposed to a particular religion) poses questions and theories, although some of these bound up in some of the historical and mythical stories of the time. For example, the Vedas, Mahabharata, Ramayana etc. (BTW, I am not Hindu either).
For me, Tolkien's is a psuedo-history with an edge of relgious philosophy, without it being too obvious. If i was the alien, i would certainly choose Tolkien's work purely because i would find it as a form of entertainment rather that a collection of obscure advice on how to live our lives.
__________________
Durin the Sleepless! |
10-15-2004, 09:38 AM | #13 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
|
AElfwine,
Throw in the Sil, then. Same answer, I think. Durin 1, Throw in the Eastern writings, too. Then the aliens will have more evidence of the distinctiveness of Western thought and highlight the derivative natures of the LOTR + Sil and Koran from the Bible. Now if we are going to say "the works of Tolkein", I'll argue that LEAF BY NIGGLE as a short story will do more for the above rendered opinion than all of the HoME stuff together. But that's IMHO, of course. And if we're going to expand to that level with Tolkein, maybe we ought to allow some commentaries on the Bible and the Koran and the Eastern writings as well, but do the aliens really live long enough to cover all that?
__________________
Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
10-18-2004, 02:38 AM | #14 | |
Hobbit
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Norway
Posts: 23
|
Quote:
__________________
Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! Auta i lómë! |
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Question about ice cream | katya | General Messages | 18 | 07-20-2005 09:47 AM |
Unofficial Hobbit Question Thread | Yodaman | Lord of the Rings Books | 2 | 06-14-2004 11:35 AM |
arwens immortal? and an eowyn question to ponder... | Quickbeam | Lord of the Rings Movies | 14 | 12-06-2001 03:07 AM |
A question of Sauron and the Ring | hama | Lord of the Rings Books | 8 | 12-04-2001 05:00 AM |
Question for Mr. Jackson | Fat middle | Lord of the Rings Movies | 9 | 07-19-2000 04:36 AM |