Tolkien and little hints in his work...

[Dúnedain]

I started reading Lord of the Rings again a couple nights ago, and I came across a passage that never really caught my eye much until the other night. I found it was pretty interesting and I think it held the views of Tolkien and the transformation into a more modern world, which we all know, he didn't like too much. I think it brings about a more personable side of his writings, through his own experiences. At the same time it speaks of how those that are sheltered, realize they aren't when something out of the ordinary happens, and they wish for things to be like they were. Whether it is living in the past and not bearing for the future or whatnot. It's little things like that, that I appreciate with every reading of these books. Funny thing is, I never really caught this passage before, and I've read it the books about 5 times, lol...

Check it out:

From Fellowship, Three is Company:

'I cannot imagine what information could be more terrifying than your hints and warnings,' exclaimed Frodo. 'I knew that danger lay ahead, of course; but I did not expect to meet it in our own Shire. Can't a hobbit walk from the Water to the River in peace?'

'But it is not your own Shire,' said Gildor. 'Others dwelt here before hobbits were; and others will dwell here again when hobbits are no more. The wide world is all about you: you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out.'

[LeniFreak]

Things like that really blow my mind because you don't really notice the first or even tenth time you read over and ignore them.

it held the views of Tolkien and the transformation into a more modern world, which we all know, he didn't like too much

One aspect of this is the sort of encroachment of the modern world onto what had been; also, Tolkein was writing the Lord of the Rings over many many years, six of which were the six years of World War II. England spent a long time before the second World War ignoring--well, not ignoring, but tolerating Hitler. And the English government (the US and others were guilty as well, but England is closer to home for Tolkein--his Shire, so to speak, that was hedging itself in) spent a long time being oblivious to a lot of things throughout the fifteen-odd years that a.) Hitler was in power and/or b.) the world was at/recovering from war. This lack of concern for certain world wide events, believing that things would turn out all right at home in the end, and the sun would keep figuratively not setting, was very reflective of a "fencing themselves in" and not realizing that they could not fence the rest of the world right back out.

Sorry, I'm doing Lit studies and that's just my blurb for the day. But yeah, that passage, and others that sort of pop out in their greater/more specific significance, made me think.

[sun-star]

Originally posted by LeniFreak
Tolkein was writing the Lord of the Rings over many many years, six of which were the six years of World War II. England spent a long time before the second World War ignoring--well, not ignoring, but tolerating Hitler. And the English government (the US and others were guilty as well, but England is closer to home for Tolkein--his Shire, so to speak, that was hedging itself in) spent a long time being oblivious to a lot of things throughout the fifteen-odd years that a.) Hitler was in power and/or b.) the world was at/recovering from war.

That's an interesting theory. It's made me wonder: does anyone know what Tolkien's views were on the appeasement of Hitler? Most people at the time (especially those, like Tolkien, who had fought in WW1) were in favour of the "fencing in" policy, but from this "fencing in" quote it seems like his ideas could have been different...

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Here are two somewhat contradictory, or at least not complimentary, views of the "appeasement" question above:
From Tom Shippey's "J.R.R. Tolkien", p.165:

The phrase 'in my time' may recall Neville Chamberlain's now infamous promise, on his return from capitulating to Hitler in Munich in 1938, that he brought 'peace in our time.' He did not. Frodo's wish to put the whole thing off (not cure it) is as short-sighted as Chamberlain's turned out to be, and when Gandalf says 'that is not for them to decide', he is condemning the whole discredited idea of 'appeasement'......More significantly detailed, perhaps, is the side-issue of the Rammas Echor, which is what the men of Gondor call 'the out-wall that they had built with great labour, after Ithilien fell under the shadow of their Enemy'.....It is still at this moment under construction, or under repair, and Gandalf tells the men working on it that they are 'over-late'. The wall is a waste of time, so 'leave your trowels and sharpen your swords!" .....the image of men and labour wasted guarding a wall which served no purpose could hardly fail, in the 1950s, to remind readers of the Maginot Line, built (or half-built) in order to secure France for ever from german invasion, but strategically pointless

But in Hunphrey Carpernter's Biography:

Tolkien, like many others at the time [of the Munich agreement] was suspicious not so much of German intentions as of those of Soviet Russia; he wrote that he had 'a loathing of being on one side that includes Russia,' and added: 'One fancies that Russia is probably ultimately far more responsible for the present crisis and choice of moment than Hitler.'

[Attalus]

However, Tolkien loathed German anti-Semitism. He sent a cheeky reply to a German publisher that wanted to translate The Hobbit but wanted to know if he were Jewish, to the effect that he wasn't but wished he were.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

You're absolutey right about Tolkien's essentially "pro-Semitic" outlook. I didn't include one quote from "Letters" I especially like because I thought it might be off topic. I think it's the one Attalus is referring to. An excerpt:

I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people.....I cannot, however, forebear to comment that if impertinent and irrelevant inquiries of this sort are to become the rule in matters of literature, then the time is not far distant when a German name will no longer be a source of pride.

Yup, especially for 1938 with Germany growing in power, a cheeky answer.

Unfortunately, the wimpy publishers apparently sent a shorter version.

And in a related letter to his publishers JRRT said:

I do not regard the (probable) absence of all Jewish blood as necessarily honorable; and I have many Jewish friends, and should regret giving any colour to the notion that I subscribed to the wholly pernicious and unscientific race-doctrine.

An interesting stand, especially since I believe there was significant anti-Semitic feeling in upper and middle classes in the U. K. at the time, as there indeed was also in the U.S.

[Thorin II]

Good discussion. I think it's interesting how Tolkien made such a stink about hating allegory when you see how much of his work seems to mirror the politics of the time.

[sun-star]

Great quotes, thanks (especially that excellent letter!) Those two viewpoints may not actually be contradictory, since one seems to be his attitude before the war and one after - naturally the failure of appeasement would change his opinion of it.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by Thorin II
Good discussion. I think it's interesting how Tolkien made such a stink about hating allegory when you see how much of his work seems to mirror the politics of the time.

All writer's are influenced by the events of their lives. This does not necessarily make what they write an allegory.

[Forkbeard]

Originally posted by Thorin II
Good discussion. I think it's interesting how Tolkien made such a stink about hating allegory when you see how much of his work seems to mirror the politics of the time.

Actually, it could be made to fit the events of our day just as well, or really of any day...I would steer away from reading LoTR as referring to the politics of WWII.

Forkbeard

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by Forkbeard
Actually, it could be made to fit the events of our day just as well, or really of any day...I would steer away from reading LoTR as referring to the politics of WWII.

Forkbeard

I agree Forkbeard, and welcome to the Moot!

[Arandir]

I think that many confuse "applicability" with "allegory; but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other with the purposed domination of the author.

J.R.R. Tolkien, Forward to the Second Edition,
The Lord of the Rings

[ethuiliel]

I think that many confuse "applicability" with "allegory; but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other with the purposed domination of the author.

I would have probably used that quote myself. Tolkien was definetly affected by what he witnessed and experienced in his life (besides WWII there was also WWI, the increase of industry/destruction of nature, and more). This was visible in his works but not because he tried to put it there, more because he couldn't keep it out.

[Nurvingiel]

Well said ethuiliel!

[Arandir]

Among my other vices, I'm a student of World War One and that it affected Tolkien profoundly would be an understatement. Many of the images in the book of places such as Mordor or the Dead Marshes are "inspired" (if that's the right term) by his memories of the horrors of the front lines.

[Forkbeard]

Originally posted by Arandir
Among my other vices, I'm a student of World War One and that it affected Tolkien profoundly would be an understatement. Many of the images in the book of places such as Mordor or the Dead Marshes are "inspired" (if that's the right term) by his memories of the horrors of the front lines.

Interesting! I, and others, have been working on Tolkien's Emyn Muil, Mordor etc as being very like the underworld in the Aeneid and in Dante, and even images from other literary battle scenes.

ALl into the soup pot, as Tollers I think would probably reply.

Forkbeard

[Arandir]

Aye. And lovely pot of stew it is. (as Sam might have observed)

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Originally posted by Arandir
Among my other vices, I'm a student of World War One and that it affected Tolkien profoundly would be an understatement. Many of the images in the book of places such as Mordor or the Dead Marshes are "inspired" (if that's the right term) by his memories of the horrors of the front lines.
______________________________

Then have you seen yet a book I've just purchased and begun browsing: Tolkien And The Great War: The Threshold of Middle-earth, by John Garth?

[Arandir]

Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin
Originally posted by Arandir
Among my other vices, I'm a student of World War One and that it affected Tolkien profoundly would be an understatement. Many of the images in the book of places such as Mordor or the Dead Marshes are "inspired" (if that's the right term) by his memories of the horrors of the front lines.
______________________________

Then have you seen yet a book I've just purchased and begun browsing: Tolkien And The Great War: The Threshold of Middle-earth, by John Garth?

It's on my "to read" list at this very moment. I did see it at the bookstore the other day. I'm looking forward to a more in-depth look at his early life.