The disappearance of Maglor and Daeron

[Finrod Felagund]

Ok, in the Silmarillion it says that after Maglor threw his Silmaril into the sea he wandered the shores singing and never came back among the elves. Where'd he end up?

Daeron of Doriath, after Luthien's departure, went over the Ered Luin and made music for many ages, so what happened to him?

Does anyone know where the two greatesat singers of the elves went?

[Kirinki54]

Sorry, no knowledge of where they went. But it is funny the two greatest Elven singers met with such similar fates in the end. I wonder how come?

[Ñólendil]

In The Road Goes Ever On (a book published by Tolkien and Donald Swann during the former's lifetime) Tolkien says that Galadriel was the last of the leaders of the Etyañgoldi (Exiled Noldor) at the end of the First Age. That means Maglor was no longer there. I assume Maglor died some time in the First Age, then.

I have no clue about Daeron. I like to imagine him still singing his sad songs of Lúthien the Beloved in the Fourth Age by the Sea.

It is curious we are never told what ends the mighty singers came to. But it's possible they now walk in Valinor.

[Finrod Felagund]

Unless Maglor let himself die by starving or something, he would still be alive right? After all, elves don't grow old.

[Finrod Felagund]

Maglor never came back among the elves so Galadriel would have been the only leader left but not necessarily the only one left alive. The second age started at Morgoth's defeat, Maglor was alive, at least for a time after that.

[Ñólendil]

Elves can still be killed, or die of grief.

[Tar-Elenion]

Originally posted by Ñólendil
In The Road Goes Ever On (a book published by Tolkien and Donald Swann during the former's lifetime) Tolkien says that Galadriel was the last of the leaders of the Etyañgoldi (Exiled Noldor) at the end of the First Age. That means Maglor was no longer there. I assume Maglor died some time in the First Age, then.

Actually Galadriel being the 'last' survivor is a reference to the end of the Third Age, when she sang her song:
"The question SÃ* man i yulma nin enquantuva? and the question at the end of her song (Vol. I, p. 389), What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?, refer to the special position of Galadriel. She was the last survivor of the princes and queens who had led the revolting Noldor to exile in Middle-earth. After the overthrow of Morgoth at the end of the First Age a ban was set upon her return, and she had replied proudly that she had no wish to do so."
This is also borne out by Letter 297: "The exiles were allowed to return - save for a few chief actors in the rebellion of whom at the time of the L. R. only Galadriel remained."

There are a couple of references to Maglor in the Second Age, for example Lost Road notes that Elrond and Maglor dwelt together for a time (Quenta Silmarillion, Conclusion, paragraph $28, pg 332 of the hardcover), after the War of Wrath. I seem to recall another later one, but I can't find it off hand, and may be mistaken

[markedel]

In "Lord of the whatever one of the ministrels shows up in Ithilien-garden of Gondor (tm)

[Nibs]

Well, I see markedel likes to speak in riddles, because I have no idea what that post means. The only quotations I've seen travel in pairs .

Anyway, I don't think they were meant to come back into the story, kind of like Hurin who, if I recall correctly, cast himself into the sea (according to rumour). I doubt they were meant to return into the stories, and their fate was inconsequential.

[markedel]

Lord of the whatever is a funny (if coarse) LOTR parody courtesy of the rec.arts.tolkien newsgroup that I found on the "flying moose of nargothond" website. One of the ministrels shows up in (drug filled) Ithilien to annoy Sam as he sings.

[Nibs]

Ah. I see.

[If it weren't for this additional sentence, this would be my shortest post ever!]

[Ñólendil]

Actually Galadriel being the 'last' survivor is a reference to the end of the Third Age, when she sang her song:

Thank you for the correction! Good to know. And your quote from the Letter says "a few". That few could be Celebrimbor, Maglor and Galadriel. The only other possibility I can think is Lalwendë sister of Fingolfin. Everyone else had died.

[Finrod Felagund]

I'd still really like to know where Tolkien "sent" Maglor!

[Michael Martinez]

Nothing in The Book of Lost Tales is relevant to the stories of either The Lord of the Rings or The Silmarillion. Maglor's fate is unknown, but it can be stated with absolute surety that he did not dwell with Elrond in the Second Age because there is no text which states he did. There was no "Second Age" when Tolkien worked on The Book of Lost Tales.

[Elfhelm]

I think he lives in torment having lost all he knew, and broken an oath that should never have been spoken. His life is a living purgatory and he forsakes his name and becomes a loner lost in the wilds of middle earth. I think Tolkien leaves us to imagine this terrible existence and says no more.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Maybe he faded.

[Findegil]

Sorry that I had again to gainsay you Michael.

Nothing in The Book of Lost Tales is relevant to the stories of either The Lord of the Rings or The Silmarillion.

Sorry, but that is only your opinion. And I can't see that it is cannon.

Maglor's fate is unkown,

Yes that's surely the truth!

but it can be stated with absolute surety that he did not dwell with Elrond in the Second Age because there is no text that states he did

If you were living in say a.d. 1500 you would have said, their can't be what today is called America, but still it was. Just kiding here, you are right that their is no text of JRR Tolkien that states such a fact, but when I read your own text on Site 101 than you had stretch many possibilities far beyond the point of Maglor living in the second age together with Elrond.

There was no "Second Age" when Tolkien worked on The Book of Lost Tales.

Well it was of course not named so, but if you read again what is preserved of JRR Tolkiens ideas about the events after the war of the children of the Valar against Melko you will find a much longer time that could have elapsed before the Elves left the ruins of Beleriand. (Remember the wars against men.)

Best Regards
Findegil

[Finrod Felagund]

On top of that, in the Silmarillion, it says Maglor never came back among the elves. Although it's possible that meant of ME. Maybe he's in Valinor? I dunno.

[Wulažg]

I seriously doubt that Maglor would ever be able to return to Valinor after what he did. Remember though that Middle Earth is a lot bigger than we think. I mean, there is only really the North talked about in the books. If the Ethryn Luin (Alatar and Pallando) could disappear into the East then why couldn't have Maglor?

[Michael Martinez]

Originally posted by Findegil
Sorry that I had again to gainsay you Michael.

That doesn't make you any less wrong. I will explain.

quote:
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Nothing in The Book of Lost Tales is relevant to the stories of either The Lord of the Rings or The Silmarillion.
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Sorry, but that is only your opinion.

Christopher Tolkien has published twelve books which lay out the facts. I am not expressing an opinion. I am merely stating a fact. There is nothing in The Book of Lost Tales which is relevant to either The Lord of the Rings or The Silmarillion in terms of characters, stories, histories, or worlds.

My opinion is irrelevant, and that is why I haven't shared it.

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but it can be stated with absolute surety that he did not dwell with Elrond in the Second Age because there is no text that states he did
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If you were living in say a.d. 1500 you would have said, their can't be what today is called America, but still it was. Just kiding here, you are right that their is no text of JRR Tolkien that states such a fact, but when I read your own text on Site 101 than you had stretch many possibilities far beyond the point of Maglor living in the second age together with Elrond.

The essays on Suite101 are speculations which occasionally reiterate the facts.

There was no "Second Age" when Tolkien worked on The Book of Lost Tales.
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Well it was of course not named so, but if you read again what is preserved of JRR Tolkiens ideas about the events after the war of the children of the Valar against Melko you will find a much longer time that could have elapsed before the Elves left the ruins of Beleriand. (Remember the wars against men.)

There were no wars against men in the Second Age of Middle-earth. You are very, very confused about the completely distinct histories and worlds of these books. The Book of Lost Tales postulated a completely different mythology in which ALL of the Elves left Faerie and returned to the world of Men, where they remained in exile and were eventually destroyed. Eventually, the surviving Elves were offered an opportunity to return to Faerie.

The events described in The Book of Lost Tales are told loosely connected group of stories which are supposedly set in ancient Britain (that part of Britain which became England, in fact). There are very specific associations between the English landscape and geography and some of the stories. Furthermore, the mythology refers in several places to the arrival of the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes in England. There are no such associations in either The Lord of the Rings or The Silmarillion.

Christopher Tolkien states unequivocably that The Book of Lost Tales is not The Silmarillion:

This rather rambling discussion is an attempt to explain my primary motives in offering The Book of Lost Tales for publication. It is the first step in presenting the 'longitudinal' view of Middle-earth and Valinor: when the huge geographical expansion, swelling out from the centre (as it were) thrusting Beleriand into the west, was far off in the future; when there were no 'Elder Days' ending in the drowning of Beleriand, for there were as yet no other Ages of the World; when the Elves were still 'fairies', and even Rumil the learned Noldo was far removed from the magisterial 'loremasters' of my father's later years. In The Book of Lost Tales the princes of the Noldor have scarcely emerged, nor the Grey-elves of Beleriand; Beren is an Elf, not a Man, and his captor, the ultimate precursor of Sauron in that role, is a monstrous cat inhabited by a fiend; the Dwarves are an evil people; and the historical relations of Quenya and Sindarin were quite differently conceived. These are a few especially notable features, but such a list could be greatly prolonged....

While he goes on to speak about the transformational processes which also brought the themes forward into new mythologies, the fact is that Christopher made it absolutely crystal clear that The Book of Lost Tales is not The Silmarillion, both in this passage and others.

He goes on to say:

The Lost Tales never reached or even approached a form in which my father could have considered their publication before he abandoned them; they were experimental and provisional, and the tattered notebooks in which they were written were bundled away and left unlooked at as the years passed....

There is nothing in The Book of Lost Tales which is useful for understanding the world of The Lord of the Rings or The Silmarillion. The races changed, the characters changed, the histories and geographies changed, the worlds were completely separate and distinct.

It is completely pointless to confuse and intermingle these two literary worlds, because the later one only borrows from the earlier one. They are not interchangeable or in any way compatible with one another.


The facts may inconveniently derail all notions about direct connections between The Book of Lost Tales and the later books, but they remain facts. Calling them my opinion or anyone's opinion even a thousand times is a waste of effort. You cannot change facts.