07-15-2009, 10:47 AM | #1 | ||
Enting
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Elrond at the War of Wrath
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07-15-2009, 10:52 AM | #2 |
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I would guess that he - and the other Elves of Beleriand - saw them arrive and marvelled at them, but did not advance with them to the battle.
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07-15-2009, 11:02 AM | #3 |
Enting
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Seems weird, that he would see the army but not see the war?
Anyway I don't exactly have a clear idea of what that phrase in the Sil means. Did no one of the elves of Beleriand or the havens join the host of the Valar? Or those that joined immediately left? I'm not fully convinced...
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07-15-2009, 12:59 PM | #4 |
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If we use the dates from The Tale of Years anyway (War of the Jewels), Elrond would have been only thirteen years old at the coming of the host of the West (the revised dates for the last war of the Elder Days were given at 545-587).
In The Line of Elros it was said that Elros was born 58 years before the SA began, which agrees with these revised dates for the birth of Elros and Elrond (FA 532), and the end of the FA in 590. |
08-05-2009, 08:10 AM | #5 | |
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Since we don’t really know much about Elros and Elrond after the Sack of Sirion (what were they doing, were they living with Gil-galad or Maglor?), the question of whether they fought in the war really comes down to these: 1) did Elros and Elrond fight with the Men of Beleriand, who we know fought for the host of the Valar? 2) did the Elves of Middle-earth fight alongside the Host of the Valar? To answer the first question, then yes they may well have. What supports this is the fact that the Men accepted Elros as their first king. In times like these the leaders of people had to prove that they were great warriors and commanders or they would loose their respect and support among their people (an example is how the lame Brandir lost the favour of the Folk of Brethil when Túrin, a great warrior, arrived). Neither do I believe the battle-hardened Men who had fought long and hard in the War of Wrath would simply accept an upstart Half-elf – no matter his linage – who had never seen battle, just because the Valar told them to. Elros would have had to prove himself worthy. The second question is much more complicated, and is purely based on my opinion and presumptions. I believe the Elves of Middle-earth did partake in the War of Wrath, and the reasons are these: - they, more than any other (except Húrin and his family), suffered under Morgoth’s rule, and they would not have stood idly by when there was a chance to have revenge. And I think even had the the Valar forbidden them to join in they would have simply fought on their own, taking advantage of the fact that Morgoth would have been busy fighting the main host, and doing as much damage to his forces whenever and wherever they could. - yes it all sounds so grand with the coming of the mighty Host of the Valar, but was it really? I mean probably around 90% of the Elven Host would have been born in the Bliss of Valinor, and would have never seen an orc nor wielded a weapon in battle. We know that no matter how much you train it can never really compare you to what you will face once in battle – the horror of it – and soldiers often freezes up. I think the Host of the Valar would have been complete idiots not to draw on the experience of the Elves of Middle-earth, who had fought the enemy for centuries and have invaluable knowledge of the enemy’s strengths and weaknesses concerning equipment, fighting style(s), tactics etc. And the Host would have been complete idiots not to make use of some experienced, battle-hardened warriors. - why would the Men of Beleriand fight in the war and not the Elves? So to return to the original question, then my answer would be: yes, Elrond did somehow partake in the War of the Wrath; not only because he had the time and opportunity, but also because we know Elrond commanded the army Gil-galad sent to aid Eregion, but would he send someone who had never fought in a battle? If Elrond had not proved himself a capable warrior and commander in battle, Gil-galad, knowing the danger of placing someone in charge with no experience, could have found a better suited commander to lead the army. And the only battle Elrond could have had the chance to gain experience and prove himself was in the War of Wrath. |
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08-05-2009, 08:50 AM | #6 |
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Hi Elf of Cave - and welcome to Entmoot!
Are you sure though, that the men of Beleriand fought with the Army of Valinor? I didn't think they did. I thought the gift of Numenor was for previously standing by the Elves of Beleriand and fighting with them against the forces of Morgoth. As I read the pertinent passages, the image I get is that this grand army arrives in what is basically the shambles of a refuge camp, tells the folks living there to 'stand aside' and let them handle it - then marches north to do their job. The message to the Elves (and Men - I thought) of Beleriand was probably - "You've done all you can, now leave it to us." What passages indicate to you that Men fought with the Host of the Valar?
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08-05-2009, 11:37 AM | #7 | |
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Thank you - glad to be here
I don't have my books with me at the moment but I'm pretty sure it says in the Silmarillion, that the Three Houses of Men fought alongside the Valar while Men out of the east fought with Morgoth (and were for the most part destroyed). C*rdan (and Gil-galad) had lived on Balar since FA 473 I very much doubt they spend so many years living in a refuge camp, sitting idly by the fire and picking their noses saying "well, too bad, let's just sit here and die". Until the Host of the Valar arrived, they would have had no other choice than to rebuild their military strength as much as possible to defend themselves. Quote:
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08-05-2009, 12:24 PM | #8 |
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Do we know exactly how long Elrond and Elros lived with Maglor?
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08-05-2009, 02:10 PM | #9 | |
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Men fought on both sides of this war, as they ever have and seemingly ever shall.
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08-05-2009, 03:13 PM | #10 | ||||||
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The Valar knew Morgoth pretty well, and they no doubt had realised that the first time they fought Morgoth, they hadn't succeeded in rooting out the hidden depths of his fortress. This time he probably even have more forces ready. (He did, the dragons.) So I'm pretty sure the Valinorean forces took what warriors they could get to get the job done properly this time.
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08-06-2009, 08:03 AM | #11 | |||
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Yes, but remember that until then Morgoth’s forces had only fought against the Dwarves, the Sindar and Nandor of Beleriand. The Nandor were lightly armed. The Dwarves were well-armed, and made weapons and armour for the Sindar. When the Fëanorians arrives they come equipped with the newest technology in armour and weapons – and a hatred of Morgoth greater than anything else. As we know from our own history two war faring nations always develop their war-technology always develops in accordance with each other, so Morgoth’s forces would have had weapons and armour suited for battle against the Dwarves, the Sindar and Nandor, but these would have been almost useless against the new technology the Noldor brought with them, not to forget the use of cavalry (which seems to have come with the Fëanorians). And in that battle Morgoth was careless; desiring only to drive the Noldor out as quickly as possible and completely underestimated them. When the Host of the Valar arrived their armour and weapon design would most likely not have changed much from what the Noldor first brought (while the technology of both the Noldor and Morgoths forces would have continued to evolve through the First Age), so the Host of the West may not have had the advantage of technology the exiled Noldor had upon arrival. And Morgoth would most likely have been more careful battling this new enemy, not wanting to make the same mistake twice – and this time his forces did not have the advantage of sheer size. |
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08-06-2009, 08:41 AM | #12 |
Elf Lord
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I wonder whether the twins' decision to live man-wise or elf-wise was already made by this time. If Elros had already decided to live as a Man, then it is likely that he was already a leader of his people when the War of Wrath commenced, even if he was still advised (or even temporarily outranked) by some of his elders. By the end of that war, he could have greatly distinguished himself among Men.
Nevertheless, it was his lineage that gave him the initial leg-up. He was the heir.
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08-06-2009, 09:24 AM | #13 | |||
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Suppose Elrond and Elros were mature enough to have been instructed in fighting, then (purely speculating here) Maedhros and Maglor may still have kept them away from any battle by making them responsible for escorting and guiding the non-combattants to safety while the rest of the warriors engaged the enemy. This way the twins may not have partaken in a single battle. Quote:
I maintain Elros' lineage was of greater weight, because Tolkien himself always seemed to put lineage forward in matters of succession. Those of the right lineage were not always chosen. In the case of Arvedui, Gondor (still in war-time) did indeed opt for a battle-proven warrior of their own. But according to Malbeth's prophesy, Arvedui would eventually have been the better choice.
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08-07-2009, 08:15 AM | #14 | ||
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I have always viewed Maedhros as a very practical person, and in a desperate situation as the one they faced after the Third Kinslaying (having lost more warriors in the sack, facing rebellion in his own ranks) he would have had everyone under his charge equipped and instructed in the use of weaponry. A good leader should always prepare for the worst case scenario, and when you are constantly under threat from the enemy you cannot afford to shield someone from reality simply because it goes against your/your culture’s moral principles. In desperate times there is no room for decency, and people who cannot properly defend themselves are a liability one can ill afford. Elros and Elrond responsible for escorting and guiding the non-combatants to safety? It would have been the most dangerous position Maglor and Maedhros could place them in, because should something unforeseen happen (like an ambush) they would be doomed. It is a lot safer to be surrounded by fellow warriors than by “civilians”. And why do you think there would be children? We know Elves only begot children in times of peace, or as is the case in the First Age, when you felt safe (like in Gondolin, for instance). I don’t think many Elven children were begot after the N*rnaeth Arnoediad – unless it be in the remaining Elven strongholds, Nargothrond, Doriath and Gondolin – and later on Balar. It would be too perilous to beget and raise children, especially Elven children who took so long to reach maturity, when the future seemed so bleak and hopeless as it must have. Quote:
What we know about Men in the First Age is that they have been under threat from the enemy since the beginning of their very existence, and the remaining Men in the end of that age would only ever have known fear, peril and uncertainty, and never peace and a sense of security – do you believe they could simply let their guard down and blindly dare to believe that now evil had ended? I think they would have found that immensely hard and I don’t think they would actually have dared to believe it – and even if they did then once burned, twice shy: they would make sure they would never again end up in a situation in which they would be at the mercy of other races for protection. The Whole idea of Númenor is that finally Men would have their own land, their own king, their own culture etc. All in all: complete independence in all matters – especially concerning the military. Yes linage is important in Tolkien’s world but it was equally important throughout our own history and yet linage was not everything. Túrin is a great example of this: when he came to Nargothrond he quickly became popular because he was a great warrior, and in the end the Elves listened more to Túrin than they did their own King, and later in Brethil, Túrin once again quickly became more popular than their leader Brandir who tried to protect his people by avoiding open war. As you point out those were times of war and after the War of Wrath Men were facing a time of peace, but my point is it does not matter, because in the end it is all about who has the people’s, and more important the army’s, loyalty. Imagine this very likely scenario: A Man fights in the War of Wrath, and during that time he proves himself a fierce warrior and great leader so at the end of the war he has become the chosen commander of the Edain forces. Now A divine being comes to the Men and tells them that the War is over and evil is vanquished, and as a gift for their services they are granted this new island to be their own, and the divine beings has chosen a young Half-Elf of great linage to be their king. Can you imagine how the men would feel – how the commander would feel? He has the loyalty of the soldiers (and likely also the soldiers families) – he is the leader of the Men but now he suddenly has to serve and upstart Half-Elf whom has spent his entire life living (in your opinion) sheltered among Elves, knows next to nothing of the Edain lore and traditions, and who the Edain knows absolutely nothing about. Do you think they would accept that – that the peoples chosen leader would accept that? I don’t (and it would seem on the verge of blackmail on the Valar’s part to give Men this new land but only if they accept the leader they have chosen for them). Elros could not have succeeded as King if he had not first gained the loyalty of the Edain, and especially that of the soldiers because we all know what has happened to leaders who has/had lost the support and loyalty of the army – they are/were not leaders for long. The reason for this is, as I have mentioned, because it is human nature to choose the tried and the true, the known over the unknown, the certain over the uncertain. We prefer the existing patterns, the established relationships, the environment which we know — even if there are obvious and repeated deficiencies, and even if the world is rapidly changing all around us. We find it hard to change, and we are afraid of new ways of thinking and doing. This would have been the case of the Edain at the end of the First Age as well. |
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08-07-2009, 11:19 AM | #15 |
Elf Lord
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I've always had the impression that the twins were not held captive by Maedhros and Maglor very long. Is there any evidence that they hadn't returned to their own people before the War of Wrath?
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08-07-2009, 02:27 PM | #16 | |||||||
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There's another factor in this: there is no garantee that the seperate groups of Edain were all led by the best warrior of that group that also happened to be chosen for that purpose by the others. Some no doubt were only leader because they could yell the hardest, were the oldest, had had the richest farm, or were really not a good leader at all but everybody else was still worse, etc.... And many were probably not chosen democratically either. Therefore it must be possible, and decidedly human, that the Edain relied on reasons to follow a leader, other than solely their personal, first-hand knowledge of his actions in battle. Quote:
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08-07-2009, 02:44 PM | #17 |
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Incidentally, the following are some variant texts that seem to hinge on the matter of Elves 'growing up' so to speak (including the L&C text). With respect to B below, 3,000 years might refer to a rate of growth in Elves as it was from very early on, and which might have shortened later -- noting that this text stands in close relationship to the manuscript of Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth and Finrod's remark in that text: 'Already those of us who dwell in Middle-earth, and even we who have returned to it, find that the change of their bodies is swifter than in the beginning.' Also, in the manuscript the word 'change' reads 'growth' rather.
In any case the examples below do not necessarily need to be consistent with each other. ____________________ A) Elfwine's Preamble, Of the laws and customs among the eldar pertaining to marriage and other matters related thereto: together with the statute of Finwe and Miriel and the debate of the Valar at its making. The Eldar grew in bodily form slower than Men, but in mind more swiftly. They learned to speak before they were one year old; and in the same time they learned to walk and to dance, for their wills came soon to the mastery of their bodies. Nonetheless there was less difference between the two Kindreds, Elves and Men, in early youth; and a man who watched elf-children at play might well have believed that they were the children of Men, of some fair and happy people. (...) Children of Men might reach their full height while Eldar of the same age were still in body like to mortals of no more than seven years. Not until the fiftieth year did the Eldar attain the stature and shape in which their lives would afterwards endure, and for some a hundred years would pass before they were full-grown. Morgoth's Ring B) Morgoth's Ring again: 'On earth while an Elf-child did but grow to be a man or a woman, in some 3000 years, forests would rise and fall, and all the face of the land would change...' Aman, Myths Transformed C) 'They' are the Númenóreans: 'Thus (as the Eldar) they grew at much the same rate as other Men, but when they had achieved 'full growth' then they aged, or 'wore out', very much more slowly.' Note 1, The Line of Elros, Unfinished Tales D) Author's notes to NKE ('neter, kanat, enek'): Note 1: 'C.E. ? netthi. C.E. tth > Q., T. tt; S. þþ > þ. nette meant 'girl approaching the adult' (in her 'teens': the growth of Elvish children after birth was little if at all slower than that of the children of Men). The Common Eldarin stem (wen-ed) wendé 'maiden' applied to all stages up to the fully adult (until marriage).' JRRT, from Vinyar Tengwar 47, texts generally dated 1967-70 This last one is dated fairly late actually. |
08-08-2009, 07:17 AM | #18 | ||||
Sapling
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Eärniel I believe we are reaching a stalemate, but I will give it another go
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Eärendil and Elwing married when they were 22 years old, so it seems safe to assume that Half-Elves reached maturity around the age of 20, 30 at most, so Elros and Elrond were adults throughout most of the War, and upon reaching their maturity if they had decided to go to war they would have. The only way Maglor and Maedhros (or Gil-galad) could have stopped them was by holding them prisoners, which seems unlikely. If Elros and Elrond desired to go to war, it would have been their right, not only because they had reached their maturity, but because their linage supported choosing a military profession – to prove in battle that they were worthy descendants of their mighty ancestry. Quote:
Yes linage meant a lot in forms of government in which supreme power is embodied in an individual, who is the head of state, like monarchies (not the modern ones) and empires. But realistically, the main support of a supreme ruler's power and authority was the army. A new ruler had to seek a swift acknowledgement of his new status and authority in order to stabilize the political landscape. No ruler could hope to reign without the allegiance and loyalty of the army. Yes Elros might have been fortunate to somehow gain the support of the commander(s), but we know that once men have tasted power they are not likely to relinquish it easily – especially not to a complete stranger – and Elros could quickly have found himself without any powerful supporters, which is a dangerous situation for any supreme ruler, peacetime or not. I believe when the Valar made Elros to be the first King of the Edain, he was chosen not only because his linage made him the perfect candidate but because he – even more importantly – already had achieved a great amount of loyalty and support from the Edain by having proved himself a capable leader during the war. |
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08-09-2009, 06:56 PM | #19 | |||
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08-10-2009, 08:33 AM | #20 | ||
Sapling
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And as I noted in an earlier post, Elrond commanded the army Gil-galad sent to aid Eregion, and I doubt he would send someone who had never fought in a battle. If Elrond had not proved himself a capable warrior and commander in battle, Gil-galad, knowing the danger of placing someone in charge with no combat-experience, could have found a better suited commander to lead the army (there must have been some veterans from the First Age who followed Gil-galad to Lindon). And the only battle Elrond could have had the chance to gain experience and prove himself was in the War of Wrath. |
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