03-01-2003, 05:47 PM | #1 |
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Maedhros' torment
I've been thinking of Maedhros lately. When Fingon arrives to rescue him from Thangorodrim, he begs twice to be slain, because he is "in anguish without hope". But we know that the Elves had the power to die by will, that is, to release their spirit from their body. Miriel once did. Why could not Maedhros do the same thing, if he really desired it? Is it only weariness and grief that justifies a wish to die, and not physical pain?
Thoughts, anyone?
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03-01-2003, 07:12 PM | #2 |
Enting
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That's an interesting question.
I think the death of the Elves is more like a 'death of the soul'; they probably "die", as you said, because of grief and not because of physical pain. I'm not sure it's ever stated in the books, though.
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03-01-2003, 08:01 PM | #3 |
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It depends where the source of the chapter is-the Silmarillion is not always based on the latest versions of the ME legenderium, that may explain the contradiction.
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03-02-2003, 02:20 AM | #4 | |
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I wondered about Maedhros too, Artanis, and I wondered if perhaps there must be a 'receiving' of the wish to die on the Valar end of things in order for it to take place - IOW, Maedhros wished to die, and maybe 'tried' to die, but the attempt was denied.... does that make sense?
I think it was in one of my favorites, Morgoth's Ring, where it's talking about the voluntary dying - in the section about marriage customs, and how elves are naturally monogamous, and if they were raped, the victim would choose to give up their life because of the grief; do you remember that? Aha, here it is - in the Notes after The Later Quenta Silmarillion II - Quote:
Good question, Artanis!
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03-02-2003, 04:40 AM | #5 | |
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markedel, do you have any examples from the later part of the legendarium that may explain this better?
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03-02-2003, 07:49 AM | #6 | ||
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Re: Maedhros' torment
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As for Miriel, her death became indeed wicked since she so stubbornly refused to return to incarnate life. Actually, that was her refusal that became the cause of much doubt and grief to Finwe and Feanor, to the Valar and ultimately to almost all the Elves.
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03-02-2003, 09:00 AM | #7 | |
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Re: Re: Maedhros' torment
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03-02-2003, 10:13 AM | #8 |
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According to the 'Grey-annals' (HoME 11) Maedhros's torment lasted two Valinorean years plus 5 years of the sun-which equates to about 23-24 years of the sun -wouldn't you want to die? Maybe his hopes had been lifted by the arrival of Fingolfin's host to M-E?
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03-02-2003, 11:15 AM | #9 |
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Well we know that much of the story after the death of Turin (especially the ruin of Doriath) is based on either older writings not entirely in syn with the newer versions of the mythology, and often edited together by Christopher Tolkien. I haven't read much of (and don't own) HoME so I never saw the original text source for the capture and rescue of Maedhros. It may have been laws and customs of the eldar came after this piece, and the text itself was left unchanged (for whatever reason) and CT, either because of lack of access at the time, or in the interests of creating a coherant narrative left it, knowing the compliacation, but also knowing similar things exist throughtout the work.
He puts it himself-internally these can be treated as variations on a tradition of myths, invariably changed over time (or there are errors in translation-though this is not as internalized as in LOTR), while externally these are the result of having to stitch together multiple sources, written over different periods of time, and having to be edited for continuity and coherance. I used the external explanation to explain such a contradiction, rather then try to eliminate it.
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03-02-2003, 12:29 PM | #10 | |
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Re: Re: Re: Maedhros' torment
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It's also possible that Maedhros choose to endure the torment instead of escaping through death. Perhaps the thought of wiling himself to death never arose in his mind before Finrod turned up. The coming of Finrod might have been a chance of a dignified ending because he had no hope of ever being cut loose.
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03-02-2003, 02:50 PM | #11 | ||
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Maedhros' torment
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I think it's unlikely that he had not thought of the possibility of dying, a long time before Fingon arrived. He had a lot of time to think, you might say But he may have rejected the idea for the reasons already stated. Quote:
markedel, I have all of HoME, I guess I have some reading to do So, using the external view, would you consider the latest source to be most 'valid', even if it is not in line with most of what is written before? I don't remember exactly when "Laws and customs" was written, but I think it was rather late.
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03-02-2003, 05:06 PM | #12 | |
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Maedhros' torment
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03-02-2003, 05:44 PM | #13 | ||
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I haven't gotten further than the BoLT's so I'm not entirely sure what the taint in his fëa would imply. Fëa is soul, right? Does it mean that his pride for not wanting to die on his own was unelfish? Quote:
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03-02-2003, 06:49 PM | #14 |
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I got the distinct impression that Maedhros was a very willful and stubborn Elf. I think giving in to death would have hurt his pride. Like saying, Morgoth got the better of me. But asking his Fingon, his cousin and friend, for mercy was not the same thing.
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03-02-2003, 07:01 PM | #15 | |||||
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03-02-2003, 07:02 PM | #16 | |
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Re: Re: Maedhros' torment
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-02-2003, 07:26 PM | #17 | |
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03-02-2003, 07:33 PM | #18 | |
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03-02-2003, 08:59 PM | #19 | |
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Choice #1: hang on wall by wrist until wrist falls off and I fall to death. Choice #2: hang on wall by wrist until someone comes by on a big eagle and kills me, releasing me from this misery. Choice #3: hang on wall by wrist until end of the world. Choice #4: hang on wall by wrist until Morgoth decides that he's had his fun and kills me or torchures me or both. Choice #5: humiliate myself by deliberately taking my own life, thus admitting that Morgoth got the better of me and that I wasn't stong enough in mind or body. Choice #6: choice #2 but with a twist... what if they could save me? hmmm... nope. |
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03-02-2003, 09:24 PM | #20 |
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The Sil says that Maedhros heard the Elves as they beat upon the gates of Angband, and he cried out for help, but his cries were drowned in the vastness of the rock. What I am wondering is, why didn't Maedhros say a prayer to Iluvatar or Manwe for some kind of aid? Why did it wait until Fingon did it?
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