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01-04-2005, 02:38 PM | #1 | ||||||
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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LoTR Discussion project; Book II Chapters 7 and 8
The Mirror of Galadriel
This chapter begins with the arrival of the Company in Caras Galadhon, the great Elven city in Lórien, where the inhabitants dwell up in the trees. It is a city full of light, even at night, and there is song. There is a feeling of 'magic' about the land. Lórien and Rivendell are both Elvish dwellings, and they are both influenced by Noldorin culture. How would you describe Lórien compared to Rivendell? Here we are introduced to the Lord Celeborn and the Lady Galadriel. When Aragorn tells the full tale of Moria, Celeborn loses his head and attacks Gimli, holding the Dwarves responsible for waking up the Balrog from sleep. What to me is more interesting is that he also picks on Gandalf, for being so foolish as to enter Moria, but this he does with care, maybe because he knows who Gandalf really are: Quote:
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We have then the scene where Galadriel is testing each of the members of the Fellowship. This part has been discussed in length in this thread. Do you think Frodo sensed her lust for the Ring already at this point? Is that why he thought her to be perilous? And, I wonder if Boromir had sensed it too, and that that was part of why he mistrusted her so much? I also think Aragorn was wrong when he says this about Galadriel: Quote:
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This change in the relationship between Gimli and Legolas took me by surprise the first time I read the book. Why this change, what has led up to it? Again Frodo reveals another side of himself, when he recites his own-made poem in memory of Gandalf. But then, he is after all closely related to Bilbo. The interesting thing is that the verses seem to take shape in his head, springing out from his sorrow, almost outside his will, but when he tries to put them into words he more or less fails. What are your thoughts on this? Sam and Frodo have their little convo about the Elves, and the land. Sam is really hitting the nail on the head here: Quote:
Then Galadriel takes Frodo and Sam to look in her mirror. It is Sam who takes the first look, letting his curiosity speak louder than his fear. His visions is about what his heart is full of: Frodo, and the Shire. Frodo on the other hand gets visions about Gandalf and Bilbo, and then Gondor, and then a hint about the Grey Havens. And finally, the Eye of the Enemy appears. Why did Galadriel take Frodo and Sam to look in her mirror? It was dangerous for them, she herself has to save them from the peril of their visions. Was this yet another test, similar to the one at the welcome? Or was it her way of educating them? But there is a backlash for her, she is herself being put to a test. To take the Ring offered to her or not. She passed the test. But imo the main question here is: Why did Frodo offer her the Ring? And would he really have been able to give it away?
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01-04-2005, 02:49 PM | #2 | ||||||
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Farewell to Lórien
The time has come of departure from Lórien, and the company is put to one last test: They must decide whether they should leave the Quest and remain in Lórien, or go forward. Aragorn knows that he must decide too, on behalf of the Fellowship, which course to take next. Celeborn gives the valuable gift of boats, which allows Aragorn to delay his choice for a few days. On the day of departure other gifts are given: Lembas, the waybread of the Elves, and the silken cloaks with the brooches, and the silvery ropes made of hithlain. These are all gifts that will be of importance on the Quest. They are also a certain sign that the guests are "high in the favour of the Lady". Haldir returns to be their guide once more, and he leads them to the Elves' harbour, and after packing their goods the Company are urged to try out the boats before their departure. While they are paddling slowly up the Silverlode, the white swan ship appears with Celeborn and Galadriel. Galadriel is playing her harp and singing a beautiful but immensely sad song about the inevitable loss she and all the Elves in Lórien soon will suffer. Quote:
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What are your thoughts when you read this poem? The Fellowship are now invited to eat with the Lord and the Lady at a parting feast. Frodo is more interested in Lady Galadriel than the food. Quote:
Celeborn speaks to them about their journey onwards, and shares his knowledge of the lands beyond the Great River. He also speaks a warning about Fangorn, which Boromir does not pay much credit to. It is notable that Boromir is all too willing to believe the stories he has heard about Lórien, but he dismisses warnings about Fangorn as 'Old wives' tales' Then there is the gift giving scene. Aragorn is given a sheath for Andúril, but the real gift for him is the Elessar, the green stone. The whole conversation between him and Galadriel is so loaded with meaning, but my favourite is this from Aragorn: Quote:
Why do you think Gimli was the only one of the Fellowship that Galadriel had not already prepared a gift to? Do you think she gave the gift to Gimli gladly? "And how shall I refuse"... And, what thoughts went through Celeborn's head at that moment? Compared to these gifts, the belts given to Boromir, Merry, Pippin, and even Legolas seem small and insignificant. Why is that so? Are they held less in esteem? At last the Company is ready to leave. As the boats bear them away from Lórien, Galadriel sings again, but this time in Quenya. "Ai! Láurië lántar lássi sûrinèn" ... It is interesting to notice that even if Frodo does not understand the words at that time, "they remained graven in his memory", "as is the way of Elvish words". Maybe even more so with Elvish songs. The power of song and the spoken word again. Gimli is devastated from leaving, and his words are saying much about how he feels: Quote:
I wonder what Boromir felt about leaving, he who did not want to go into Lórien in the first place: Quote:
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01-04-2005, 02:59 PM | #3 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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A few notes:
When I wrote my intro I didn't realise that the posts would turn out so long. I hope you have reached this post without falling asleep on the way. Yet there are things I'd like to discuss which I have left out because they involve material from other books than LotR, such as Lórien compared to Doriath, the relationship between Celeborn and Galadriel, perception of the flow of Time (or lack of) in Lórien, and the implications of Galadriel's rejection of the Ring on her fate. I plan to start separate threads for some of these issues. Galadriel's song of Eldamar has been recorded by The Tolkien Ensemble, on their album "An evening in Rivendell". Definately worth a hearing. Ted Nasmith has made a lovely picture of the departure from Lórien. It is from that picture I've got my avatar. You can see it here: Swan The floor is now yours. Thank you.
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01-06-2005, 07:54 AM | #4 |
Elven Warrior
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An excellent post, Artanis!
I haven't got the book to hand while I am posting so I'll have to go by memory... 1. Lorien and Rivendell - I think Sam summed it all very well. Also, It seemed that the Galadhrim were more "at home", because their natural love of trees and woods was deliberately enhanced by Galadriel who prevents the decaying of the land, which to the Elves was a grief; through the power of her Ring. Rivendell, on the other hand doesn't seem to have that much emphasis on their own landscape, though, of course, it WAS enhanced too. Possibly Elrond used his Ring for more practical purposes, such as within the actual Last Homely House. 2. I think Tolkien showed, through Boromir's fear and paranoia, the natural tendencies of Men in those times i.e. late in the 3rd Age, of the estrangement of those two races, especially Men from the South. 3. The friendship between Legolas and Gimli did seem surprising, but the possible trigger for this could have been Celeborn's comment and Galadriel's tactful rebuke. ... i will post more later - no time at present!
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01-06-2005, 08:04 AM | #5 |
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an excellent intro, artanis, unfortunately i am at college, so reply will have to wait till later
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01-06-2005, 01:05 PM | #6 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Great intro Artanis
I don't have much time now but I will reply later but there is one thing I really want to pick up on. Quote:
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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01-06-2005, 01:35 PM | #7 |
Elf Lord
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There are lots of things to discuss, and that was an excellent intro, Artanis.
Do you think it would be a good idea to take the topics one at a time? You've picked out so many good ones that it would be a shame if they got lost by the wayside. |
01-06-2005, 02:05 PM | #8 | ||
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--Life is hard, and then we die. Last edited by Artanis : 01-06-2005 at 02:08 PM. |
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01-06-2005, 02:48 PM | #9 | |||||||
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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01-06-2005, 03:09 PM | #10 | |||
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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01-06-2005, 03:12 PM | #11 | ||
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Great intro.
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01-06-2005, 06:47 PM | #12 | ||
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Excellent both intros Arty!
Begining from the end... Quote:
And now, following Gaffer's suggestion, to the begining... Quote:
However, I'm not sure about "influenced by Noldorin culture". Although Galadriel was a Noldo, her people was not. They were green elves, weren't they? I see Noldorin culture more related to crafts like sword-making, jewel-making... ad green elves more dedicated to teach trees how to speak elvish I see Lorien more nature-based than Rivendell. Second point: Celeborn. He was a jerk at that sumes all possible discussions about him. He didn't deserve his wife
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01-07-2005, 09:47 AM | #13 |
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Yes, agreed that it's a great description.
In comparison with Rivendell, Lorien is definitely more "of another world". There is a strong sense of stepping "out" of normal time and of that sense deriving from a Power in Caras Galadhon. The hobbits have a similar experience of losing track of time in both places, but it's much more pronounced than in Rivendell. There are strong hints that Lorien represents a living memory of the Eldar Days, which would account for this difference. We know from the Appendices that Lorien falls back into the mundane world after Galadriel departs, so I think we can be sure that this derived from her use of the Ring. In which case, it may well be "Noldor" in its flavour. This should also explain one of those things that had always slightly confused me: why Lorien is so mysterious and forbidding to other "good" folks such as the Rohirrim and Gondor. It has to be so to preserve the secret of the Ring. |
01-07-2005, 03:49 PM | #14 | |||
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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I think that Celeborn and Galadriel sought to educate the Silvan Elves in Lórien and make them more 'Beleriandic'. But Oropher and his small group of Sindar who migrated to Mirkwood did the opposite and accustomed themselves to the local culture. Quote:
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01-09-2005, 06:30 AM | #15 | |
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01-09-2005, 06:46 AM | #16 | |
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But over that conscience there is also the feeling of repentance of some deeds of her long life that have helped the world to reach to the current status of danger and distrust.
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01-11-2005, 03:12 PM | #17 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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I think we can just discuss all the topics when we want to, instead of taking them one by one. There are not that many posters here, I don't think it will get messy.
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01-12-2005, 05:47 AM | #18 | |||||
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A good intro, Artanis! (And not too long to be boring, rest assured )
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01-12-2005, 03:06 PM | #19 | |
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01-12-2005, 06:19 PM | #20 | |
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I'm not sure if this makes sense, but when I was thinking some days ago about the meaning of the end of the song:
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Although "Winter was coming" to Lorien, Galadriel had been fighting against it with her ring for a very long time, "too long". But taking a ship would condemn her Realm to its final fading. And also there would be no hope for the Silvan Elves that had lived and loved Lothlorien for so long a time. When the One Ring was finally destroyed she could go to the West, because then her ring was of no use and Lorien will finally fade. But I'm not sure if this is meant in her song or if I'm putting in it too much. Perhaps it just have to do with the question of her admittance or not into the West by the Valar. I cannot remember well if she had been pardoned for her (small) part in the kinslaying or if her refusal to go West after the defeat of Morgoth had barred again her entrance to the Blessed Realm. If so, her rejection of the Ring and her "diminishion" would have been what granted the right for her to take a ship.
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