The great Patratiotism debate

Sween · 03-23-2003, 06:56 PM

This is not a direct Iraq thread or really to do with theprotests or even the morals of the war in Iraq. It is to do with the line many UK Mps have been comming out with since the war started which is you have got to get behind the troops otherwise your not patrioric!

Now this has brought up a lot of questions in my mind first off is does it make you un patroiric to disagree with your country? Secondally do the iraqis feel the same dont agree with there leadership but feel they have to get behind there troops. Is this how states like this lears stay in power for so long a kinda under seige pulling together.

Last centuary was full of governments doing things that the mass populas would not agree with (i dont believe for one second if most germans knew about the holocorst they would support it)!

when is been patrotism turned into blind faith and possiable fear and is there a time when people should offer no support to its solders etc if the cause pains them so much!

Sween · 03-23-2003, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sween
This is not a direct Iraq thread or really to do with theprotests or even the morals of the war in Iraq. It is to do with the line many UK Mps have been comming out with since the war started which is you have got to get behind the troops otherwise your not patrioric!

Now this has brought up a lot of questions in my mind first off is does it make you un patroiric to disagree with your country? Secondally do the iraqis feel the same dont agree with there leadership but feel they have to get behind there troops. Is this how states like this leaders stay in power for so long a kinda under seige pulling together.

Last centuary was full of governments doing things that the mass populas would not agree with (i dont believe for one second if most germans knew about the holocorst they would support it)!

when is been patrotism turned into blind faith and possiable fear and is there a time when people should offer no support to its solders etc if the cause pains them so much!

Hasty Ent · 03-23-2003, 09:22 PM

I just looked up 'patriotism' and found a definition that said it is "love for or devotion to one's country."

Sounds good, I suppose, but I'm not patriotic and never have been. It has always resembled nationalism to me. The idea of being proud of your nation seems to hold the unspoken implication that other nations are not as good. Nations are made up of people, some good, some evil. I don't believe any nation is better or worse than mine, only different. The differences, in my opinion, are worth celebrating! I love French wine, German opera, Indian food, Japanese pottery, English literature, African textiles, etc.

Guess I've always felt that 'patriotism' was a dirty word with its hidden message of 'we're the best!' -- no one is best -- only different. I know that the above definition used the words 'love' and 'devotion' -- not 'proud' -- but it seems that most people see patriotism as a way of validating their belief in their own superiority. I find that offensive.

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-23-2003, 10:04 PM

What the...there was a post by Liz here a moment ago, and a reply by me to it!

Elvellyn · 03-23-2003, 10:12 PM

Yes, it is totally possible to be patriotic and still disagree with your country. Support of and devotion to something are different.

LuthienTinuviel · 03-23-2003, 11:09 PM

odd gwaimir...

hmm patriotisms definition didn't include anyhting about "having blind faith" or "lets follow the crowd" or "if you don't follow the christian leader (bushy) then your going to hell"

that's just the local meaning though.

argh, sorry if i make no sense, darn cold medicine

Lizra · 03-23-2003, 11:17 PM

I just read that Gwaimir! I thought I was going batty! My post did dissappear! Also a happy birthday post, and a reply to Coney on Happy thread. Whoops!

Whatever!

Nevermind! A glitch has occured. My post was on the "simple" side anyway!

Coney · 03-23-2003, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lizra
I just read that Gwaimir! I thought I was going batty! My post did dissappear! Also a happy birthday post, and a reply to Coney on Happy thread. Whoops! Whatever!

I'm pleased I found that other posts have gone missing.....I thought I was going fruit-loops

Is the moot under attack?

Has one of the mods gone mad?

Have I been sober too long?

Or is it all just a dream within' a dream within a computer program?

Yup, I've been sober too long...

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-23-2003, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lizra
I just read that Gwaimir! I thought I was going batty! My post did dissappear! Also a happy birthday post, and a reply to Coney on Happy thread. Whoops! Whatever!

Nevermind! A glitch has occured. My post was on the "simple" side anyway!

I disagree. As I said in my (now passed on

) reply, I thought it was a very good post.

Lizra · 03-24-2003, 12:07 AM

I really, really like you!

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-24-2003, 12:16 AM

Awwww! And cass said she loved me a while back!

What would I do without the Moot?

Die a long, horrible death.

jerseydevil · 03-24-2003, 12:53 AM

Lizra - here is your original post if you want to post it in...

Quote:

What's a Mps?

Does it make you unpatriotic to disagree with the policy your country is taking....no. (IMO)
I can't imagine what you would feel if your country was ruled by a dictator. It would be his/her country, and I would be the unfortunate soul who lived there! (unless they were "wonderful" dictators, haven't heard of many of those! )
I think dictators stay in power because they won't allow anything else to occur. Aren't all percieved enemies killed?
If you live in a wonderful country like USA, or England, where there are elections, and government is fairly accountable to the people, I think it's patriotic to stand behind your troops whether you agree or not....to let them know their sacrifice and dedication is worth it. How would it work if military only supported causes they thought were popular? How about if they didn't support a cause you believed in because they didn't care for it. It would be crazy. So, you support your troops because they are laying their life on the line for the country. You can work within the political system to change things you don't like, and if enough people agree with you, the change will happen. It truely is your country (as much as one person can "own" it) With a dictator, you are merely a slave (IMO). I'm no big political thinker here, sorry if this sounds "simple"

GW - this was your reply...

Quote:

Very good post, Liz.

This was my reply...

Quote:

I also agree 100% with Lizra. Disgreeing with your government's policy is completely different than supporting the troops.

One of the worst things in American history was the way the troops were treated after Vietnam. They had nothing to do with the war. They join the armed forces (although during Vietnam we had the draft) and must fight whether they agree with the policy or not. This is one of the reasons so many peace activists today always say - "we support the troops, we just don't support the war".

It isn't right to take your political views out on the troops. If you don't like your country's policy than take it out with the people who made the decision at the voting booth.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 03-24-2003, 01:07 AM

JD is such a helpful fellow.

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-24-2003, 01:22 AM

My thoughts exactly.

***IronParrot*** · 03-24-2003, 01:54 AM

I'd go as far as to say that support for the troops as human beings was one of the primary reasons people opposed Vietnam.

If you love your country, you should do it out of what the country is - in the case of the United States, perhaps its liberal democratic ideals, perhaps. And if you value that democracy, you value the fundamental right to question the actions of the government. There is a distinct separation between devotion to the nation and devotion to the state. You can't push for unanimous devotion to the state when that wasn't even nearly the case in your last election.

Support for one's country does not imply support for that country's government or its policies and actions.

**crickhollow** · 03-24-2003, 01:55 AM

There is nothing wrong with believing that your country is better than any other. Allow me, for the sake of analogy, break it down into regions.

I am from the Northwest. though I was born in California, I spent the majority of my childhood under the shadow of the Cascade mountains, and i wouldn't trade it for any other place in the world.

That is not to say that I haven't found other places in the country beautiful as well. The Tetons on a clear autumn day are gorgeous; the Grand Canyon at sunset--breathtaking. JerseyDevil -- well, you know what his opinion about the best place to live in America. As great as all these places are, I'll always come back to the Northwest, because it's home.

so, even if governments and political ideologies weren't anykind of factor, I wouldn't want to live permanently (I've nothing against temporarily living somewhere else) in any country other than America. It's home. I can't help but think it's the greatest.

***IronParrot*** · 03-24-2003, 02:00 AM

Yes, but sometimes people forget to draw the line between national pride and overwhelming national dedication. Remember, a sense of "our country is the best" superiority was one of the primary causes for the rise (and election) of fascist leaders.

In this continually globalizing world, I would say nationalism and patriotism are really becoming things of the past. It's one thing to think of one's own culture as really great, but there are limits to this.

Certainly, crickhollow, the approach you take to it - the personal feeling that there's no place like home - is totally legitimate and harmless. But a lot of people extend the concept of patriotism leaps and bounds beyond that, and that's when it becomes dangerous.

**crickhollow** · 03-24-2003, 02:08 AM

agreed.

Millane · 03-24-2003, 07:12 AM

i think that Patriotism nowadays is fine and nationalism is also fine... Turn of the century and nationalism meant war and imperialism... despite current war we have definately learned from mistakes made in the past and countries are no longer thinking of the dream to have an empire where the sun never sets... Patriotism today as i see it is mainly sports driven, or maybe thats just australia

might i add we won the WCC GO AUSSIES!!!!!!!

Lizra · 03-24-2003, 07:34 AM

Thanks JD.

03-23-2003, 06:56 PM	#1
Sween im quite stupid Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cockermouth Posts: 2,058	The great Patratiotism debate This is not a direct Iraq thread or really to do with theprotests or even the morals of the war in Iraq. It is to do with the line many UK Mps have been comming out with since the war started which is you have got to get behind the troops otherwise your not patrioric! Now this has brought up a lot of questions in my mind first off is does it make you un patroiric to disagree with your country? Secondally do the iraqis feel the same dont agree with there leadership but feel they have to get behind there troops. Is this how states like this lears stay in power for so long a kinda under seige pulling together. Last centuary was full of governments doing things that the mass populas would not agree with (i dont believe for one second if most germans knew about the holocorst they would support it)! when is been patrotism turned into blind faith and possiable fear and is there a time when people should offer no support to its solders etc if the cause pains them so much! __________________ Yeah god hes ok but i would rather be judged by a sheep than that idiot

03-23-2003, 09:22 PM	#3
Hasty Ent Elf Lord Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 516	I just looked up 'patriotism' and found a definition that said it is "love for or devotion to one's country." Sounds good, I suppose, but I'm not patriotic and never have been. It has always resembled nationalism to me. The idea of being proud of your nation seems to hold the unspoken implication that other nations are not as good. Nations are made up of people, some good, some evil. I don't believe any nation is better or worse than mine, only different. The differences, in my opinion, are worth celebrating! I love French wine, German opera, Indian food, Japanese pottery, English literature, African textiles, etc. Guess I've always felt that 'patriotism' was a dirty word with its hidden message of 'we're the best!' -- no one is best -- only different. I know that the above definition used the words 'love' and 'devotion' -- not 'proud' -- but it seems that most people see patriotism as a way of validating their belief in their own superiority. I find that offensive. __________________ Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950) Last edited by Hasty Ent : 03-24-2003 at 03:27 AM.

03-23-2003, 10:04 PM	#4
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	What the...there was a post by Liz here a moment ago, and a reply by me to it! __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

03-23-2003, 10:12 PM	#5
Elvellyn The Redneck Elf Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: In a house Posts: 539	Yes, it is totally possible to be patriotic and still disagree with your country. Support of and devotion to something are different. __________________ Oliphants make great pets.

03-23-2003, 11:09 PM	#6
LuthienTinuviel protector of orphaned rabbits Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Kalamazoo... yes, its a real place! Posts: 1,236	odd gwaimir... hmm patriotisms definition didn't include anyhting about "having blind faith" or "lets follow the crowd" or "if you don't follow the christian leader (bushy) then your going to hell" that's just the local meaning though. argh, sorry if i make no sense, darn cold medicine __________________

03-23-2003, 11:17 PM	#7
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	I just read that Gwaimir! I thought I was going batty! My post did dissappear! Also a happy birthday post, and a reply to Coney on Happy thread. Whoops! Whatever! Nevermind! A glitch has occured. My post was on the "simple" side anyway! __________________ Happy Atheist Go Democrats! Last edited by Lizra : 03-23-2003 at 11:25 PM.

03-24-2003, 12:07 AM	#10
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	I really, really like you! __________________ Happy Atheist Go Democrats!

03-24-2003, 01:07 AM	#13
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	JD is such a helpful fellow. __________________ "Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

03-24-2003, 01:22 AM	#14
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	My thoughts exactly. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

03-24-2003, 01:54 AM	#15
*IronParrot* Fowl Administrator Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Calgary or Edmonton, Canada Posts: 53,420	I'd go as far as to say that support for the troops as human beings was one of the primary reasons people opposed Vietnam. If you love your country, you should do it out of what the country is - in the case of the United States, perhaps its liberal democratic ideals, perhaps. And if you value that democracy, you value the fundamental right to question the actions of the government. There is a distinct separation between devotion to the nation and devotion to the state. You can't push for unanimous devotion to the state when that wasn't even nearly the case in your last election. Support for one's country does not imply support for that country's government or its policies and actions. __________________ All of IronParrot's posts are guaranteed to be 100% intelligent and/or sarcastic, comprising no genetically modified content and tested on no cute furry little animals unless the SPCA is looking elsewhere. If you observe a failure to uphold this warranty, please contact a forum administrator immediately to receive a full refund on your Entmoot registration. Blog: Nick's Café Canadien

03-24-2003, 01:55 AM	#16
crickhollow The Buckleberry Fairy/Captain Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Washington State again (I miss Texas). Posts: 1,345	There is nothing wrong with believing that your country is better than any other. Allow me, for the sake of analogy, break it down into regions. I am from the Northwest. though I was born in California, I spent the majority of my childhood under the shadow of the Cascade mountains, and i wouldn't trade it for any other place in the world. That is not to say that I haven't found other places in the country beautiful as well. The Tetons on a clear autumn day are gorgeous; the Grand Canyon at sunset--breathtaking. JerseyDevil -- well, you know what his opinion about the best place to live in America. As great as all these places are, I'll always come back to the Northwest, because it's home. so, even if governments and political ideologies weren't anykind of factor, I wouldn't want to live permanently (I've nothing against temporarily living somewhere else) in any country other than America. It's home. I can't help but think it's the greatest. __________________ A day will come at last when I Shall take the hidden paths that run West of the Moon, East of the Sun.

03-24-2003, 02:00 AM	#17
*IronParrot* Fowl Administrator Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Calgary or Edmonton, Canada Posts: 53,420	Yes, but sometimes people forget to draw the line between national pride and overwhelming national dedication. Remember, a sense of "our country is the best" superiority was one of the primary causes for the rise (and election) of fascist leaders. In this continually globalizing world, I would say nationalism and patriotism are really becoming things of the past. It's one thing to think of one's own culture as really great, but there are limits to this. Certainly, crickhollow, the approach you take to it - the personal feeling that there's no place like home - is totally legitimate and harmless. But a lot of people extend the concept of patriotism leaps and bounds beyond that, and that's when it becomes dangerous. __________________ All of IronParrot's posts are guaranteed to be 100% intelligent and/or sarcastic, comprising no genetically modified content and tested on no cute furry little animals unless the SPCA is looking elsewhere. If you observe a failure to uphold this warranty, please contact a forum administrator immediately to receive a full refund on your Entmoot registration. Blog: Nick's Café Canadien

03-24-2003, 02:08 AM	#18
crickhollow The Buckleberry Fairy/Captain Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Washington State again (I miss Texas). Posts: 1,345	agreed. __________________ A day will come at last when I Shall take the hidden paths that run West of the Moon, East of the Sun.

03-24-2003, 07:12 AM	#19
Millane The Dude Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: at the altar of my ego Posts: 1,685	i think that Patriotism nowadays is fine and nationalism is also fine... Turn of the century and nationalism meant war and imperialism... despite current war we have definately learned from mistakes made in the past and countries are no longer thinking of the dream to have an empire where the sun never sets... Patriotism today as i see it is mainly sports driven, or maybe thats just australia might i add we won the WCC GO AUSSIES!!!!!!! __________________ Ill heal your wounds, ill set you free,

03-24-2003, 07:34 AM	#20
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	Thanks JD. __________________ Happy Atheist Go Democrats!

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