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04-06-2006, 06:30 PM | #1 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
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Wars of the Palantiri, the Witch-King and the Ithil Stone
I decided to open a special thread about the wars of the Palantiri and about the use of the Stones for evil purposes. This thread is a derivative of the "Heirlooms of Arnor "discussion.
Gordis wrote: The Wars in Beleriand were the Wars of the Jewels, the Second Age 1700 war in Eregion and the LOTR war were the Wars of the Rings. I believe that Arnor civil wars and Angmar wars were basically the wars of the PALANTIRI. Everyone wanted them, Arthedain, Cardolan, Rhudaur and Angmar. The Witch King almost got the Master stone of Amon Sul in 1409. He attacked Fornost, I am sure, trying to approach it in secret to assure that nobody would escape and carry the stones away, as it had happened on Amon Sul. In TA 2000, he succeeded to surround Minas Ithil so well, that nobody got out and after 2 years of the siege he got a Palantir at last. Quote:
At least that is what I tried to prove in this thread: http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=12074 And I am happy that you share my idea that the Witch-King was acting on his own during Angmar wars. Very good points, CAB, about similarities shared by the Silmarils, the Rings, and the Palantiri. It reminds me of the case of Elendil after the Downfall, when he spent a lot of time in Elostirion, gazing West, at the land that was no more, and at the unattainable shores of Avallone, instead of looking forward, adapting to the new life. Such an elvish thing, looking into the past, trying to stop Time, or to turn it back - harmful tendency for everyone, but more so for humans. I agree that the sack of Minas Ithil in 2002 should definitely be included into the "Wars of the Palantiri" Now to the questions about the Witch-King and the Palantir of Minas Ithil. I think he MOSTLY used the Stone in the same way as Dunedain did, for observation. But there is this case of Earnur... Tell me, please, don't you think that Earnur has grown fey in exactly the same way as Denethor II? Quote:
Secondly the Witch-King must have weakened considerably at the moment when Sauron took his Ring from him (and it must have happened when Sauron returned to Mordor, around 2942-2951). Also I think his nazgul Ring, as all the Rings, was like a key between the Seen and the Unseen. Without his Ring, the Witch-King was unable to see the world of Light, so, probably, he couldn't use the Palantir at all since 2951 - the quote from UT simply doesn't apply to him only to Sauron's mortal servants. What do you think on this? |
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04-06-2006, 07:26 PM | #2 | |
Dúnedain Ranger of the North
Join Date: Aug 2000
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Quote:
As for the Witch King operating on his own, he most likely was in the extent that Sauron gave him carte blanche authority to do so when he sent him north. This brings up anoter question pertaining to the Rings in that with Sauron's One Ring either missing in the bottom of the Anduin or in possesion of Gollum under the mountains, did his authority over the nine still exist, or was it weakened but they still served Sauron? We know the elves used their rings while the one was lost. Anyway, I digress... I am of the thought that Denethor could have wrested control of the Palantir from the Witch King or any of the Nazgul, being that they were so long enslaved and were indeed wraiths of men wheras Denethor was alive. As far as the sack of Minas Ithil having as its primary goal to obtain a Palantir, I think it was a secondary bonus to Sauron that it was captured. The primary issue was to get the watchtower of Gondor out of being able to see so well into Mordor.
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04-06-2006, 07:42 PM | #3 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
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I suggest you read my thread (I have just bumped it) "Were the nazgul free for the most part of the Third Age?". HERE I was trying to prove that Sauron has LOST his control over the nazgul when he lost the One Ring, and only regained it by collecting the Seven and then the Nine, with great difficulty. It was done by TA 2951. I am really curious what you will say when you read it. Quote:
Last edited by Gordis : 04-07-2006 at 11:40 AM. |
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04-07-2006, 11:46 AM | #4 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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There is a thing that always bugs me in the Palantiri canon.
How can a stone know that it is being used by a rightful owner or not? As if it had gene/blood detector in it... It necessitates the level of sentience that only the One Ring possessed. Or is it more like that: the rightful owner or his deputy feels more confidant when using a Stone, than an impostor? |
04-07-2006, 03:05 PM | #5 | |
Dúnedain Ranger of the North
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"I am an outlaw, I was born an outlaw's son. The highway is my legacy, on the highway I will run." |
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04-07-2006, 06:01 PM | #6 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
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04-07-2006, 07:11 PM | #7 |
Elven Warrior
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I am glad you made this a separate thread Gordis. We seemed to be getting a bit off topic.
If I may, let me clarify my opinion of Denethor first. To me there is no question Denethor is a very powerful man, even when compared to the other Stewards. This is clearly stated more than once in Tolkien’s writings. I think the contrast between Denethor and Boromir is especially telling. My reason for questioning the statement that Denethor had greater mental abilities than any of Sauron’s servants is that it would seem that the Witch King should have even greater power. He is a Numenorean of high blood (possibly a King of Numenor, Olmer argued very well for this in an earlier thread) from a time when the Numenorean’s personal (not collective) power is presumably at it’s peak, he has several thousand years experience on Denethor, and has experience with the “Unseen” world. Gordis you rightly pointed out that Denethor is an authorized user of the stone and that the Witch King (without his ring) may not have been able to see the world of light, but the statement in Unfinished Tales doesn’t make these qualifications. It simply says that Sauron had no servants whose mental powers were greater than Saruman’s or Denethor’s. Maybe I am just reading this passage too literally, especially considering it is written concerning the ability to use Palantiri. Regardless, I think your explanation, Gordis, that the Witch King was weakened because Sauron held his ring, is best. Concerning the “rightful owner” question, I am reminded of when Sauron submitted his “mastery” of the tower on Tol-in-Gaurhoth to Luthien. Maybe it was similar with the Palantiri, one user granting authority to another, with a difference that more than one person could hold this power simultaneously. However this doesn’t explain Aragorn’s situation. Consider this; maybe when Aragorn challenged Sauron by showing himself, his sword, and his banner he might have had the duel purpose of revealing his credentials as the rightful owner of the “seeing stones” to the Palantir, or most likely to all the Palantiri. Remember that Aragorn doesn't take full control of the stone until after this point. It would seem wiser for him to use the Palantir to survey the situation in Middle Earth before making the decision to use it to push Sauron into action. Maybe he was unable to do so until after he had laid his claim as rightful master of the Palantiri. Gordis you make a very good point concerning the similarities between Earnur and Denethor. For Earnur to ride to the gates of Minas Morgul with nothing more than a bodyguard, leaving behind no heir or acknowledged successor, is an incredibly rash (and selfish) act. I don’t think the situations are exactly the same however. Sauron was able to direct what Denethor was able to see through the Palantir, letting him see only signs of doom and causing Denethor to lose all hope. I doubt the Witch King could choose what Earnur would see (and what would he have to show Earnur anyway that would cause him to think the end was near?) however the Ithil stone and Anor stone were in close accord for communication. Maybe while Earnur was trying to look elsewhere the Witch King was “whispering in his ear” taunting him, using Earnur’s character flaws (Earnur seems especially proud) and other weaknesses against him. Some evidence for this is the fact that Earnur doesn’t act after the Witch King’s first public challenge but does seven years later after the his second public challenge. Why would the Witch King bother with a second challenge? By this time Earnur’s embarrassment from the battle in the North (when Earnur’s horse couldn’t withstand the Witch King’s approach) should have faded some and also Earnur should seven years wiser as well as older. The answer could be that the Witch King has been working Earnur via the Palantir during these years. Is this roughly what you were suggesting Gordis? Last edited by CAB : 04-07-2006 at 09:10 PM. |
04-08-2006, 04:59 PM | #8 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Excellent post, CAB.
Very good points about Denethor and that Aragorn probably was showing his heirlooms to the Stone as much as to Sauron. Concerning Earnur, you read my thoughts. That was exactly what I wanted to suggest. Quote:
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"Morning, little coward! Yet a day older, are you? Soon you will be unable to mount a horse, provided you could find one which can withstand my presence..." Seven years of that, and then the repeated public challenge, - and Earnur rides to Minas Morgul practically alone. Were he not mad, he would have taken an army with him. Also the Witch-King might have shown Earnur some disturbing things in Minas Morgul: Earnur's old friends tortured or killed, or turned into wraiths. It will be similar to the psychological impact of the severed heads that the Witch-King ordered to be flung over the wall of Minas Tirith 1000 years later. Last edited by Gordis : 04-08-2006 at 06:08 PM. |
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04-08-2006, 05:49 PM | #9 |
Elven Warrior
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That is a pretty good taunt Gordis, but I had something like this in mind.
“The prophesy says that no living man can defeat me. That doesn’t disqualify YOU though, now does it?” |
04-08-2006, 06:10 PM | #10 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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That is a killer! |
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04-12-2006, 08:48 AM | #11 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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Gordis: is this partially inspired by my fanfic account of The Tower of Amon Sul?
Maybe I SHOULD post that here at Entmoot...
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
04-12-2006, 08:49 AM | #12 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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04-12-2006, 12:16 PM | #13 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
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It is more related to your Firiel's letters, though. I used parts of my notes about this fic when replying to the question about Fornost battle. |
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04-15-2006, 12:33 PM | #14 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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One important thing to remeber is that even Sauron could only chose what the other viewer sae and manipulate it, even could not force the Stones to lie.
And Val, you definitly should post that fanfic here, after the Letters of Firiel, we longingly await a sequel!
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
04-16-2006, 10:10 AM | #15 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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04-16-2006, 01:08 PM | #16 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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True, but this was the quote I was referring to.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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04-16-2006, 06:23 PM | #17 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Same with Elven Rings (the Three). One is not corrupted by it - but one is corrupted via it, if it is worn while Sauron has the One.
By the way, now that I think on it, perhaps it is true for the other rings as well (7 and 9). Nazgul became corrupted in the Second Age, because Sauron had the One. Perhaps, had someone got a nazgul Ring in the Third age, he would fade and become a wraith, but remain a good guy. It doesn't apply to the One, as it contained Sauron's will and was evil by itself. Last edited by Gordis : 04-16-2006 at 06:28 PM. |
04-16-2006, 10:48 PM | #18 | ||||
Elven Warrior
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The domination of Saruman probably didn’t require Sauron to show anything (except maybe himself). Look again at the quote Gordis took from Unfinished Tales. Quote:
As for the Palantiri being less effective for corruption than a face to face meeting, you are probably right, but I don’t see how this applies. Certainly neither Saruman or Denethor was foolish enough to personally meet with Sauron. Concerning the inability of people to lie while using the Stones, I believe you are mistaken. Quote:
Last edited by CAB : 04-16-2006 at 10:52 PM. |
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04-18-2006, 07:51 AM | #19 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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I'm most fond of my "Visitors Come to Court"... which I just HAVE to get back onto! I have 3 chapters of a planned 7 posted. I've got the 4th mostly written. So I need to wrap that one up and then get on with the rest. Try it though, and tell me what you think.
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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