06-17-2004, 02:37 PM | #1 |
The Tall
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Unprecedent Criticism!!!!!
Ex-officials lash Bush policies
Some accuse Bush's aides rather then the man himself A group of retired US diplomats and generals has condemned the foreign policy of the Bush administration as ideological and callously indifferent. Members of the 26-strong group of Diplomats and Military Commanders for Change demanded a major rethink in an open letter published in Washington. "I think we will in time come to be very ashamed of this period in history," said one, Chas Freeman. Another, Gen Merrill McPeak, talked of the "terrible disaster" in Iraq. "Because [of] the Pollyann-ish assumptions that were made by the administration going in there, that bouquets would be thrown at us and so forth, we were totally unprepared for the post-combat occupation," the former chief of staff of the US Air Force said. Mr Freeman, a former ambassador to Saudi Arabia, said the prisoner abuses at Iraq's US-run Abu Ghraib prison amounted to a "catastrophic disaster". However, he suggested that blame for the abuses rested not with President George W Bush directly, but "some people in the administration". 'Callous indifference' Another former ambassador, Phyllis Oakley, said the need for change was unprecedented. "Today we see that structure crumbling under an administration blinded by ideology and a callous indifference to the realities of the world around it," she said. "Never before have so many of us felt the need for a major change in the direction of our foreign policy." The former officials have launched their call for change in a presidential election year, but the group is made up of both Democrats and members of Mr Bush's Republican Party. Known critics of the administration were deliberately excluded from it. Pressure for change The BBC's Justin Webb in Washington says the group includes some who worked for the president's father, George Bush Senior, when he was in the White House. They include William Crowe, who as chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, was America's top military officer, and Admiral Stansfield Turner, a former director of the CIA. The statement follows criticism last month by former diplomats who accused the administration of undermining US credibility in the Arab world by its strong support for Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. The UK government has also come under fire, former officials attacking Prime Minister Tony Blair's support for Washington over Iraq and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Boost to Kerry Several individual signatories to the open letter have said they will back Mr Bush's Democrat challenger, John Kerry, and others say that the document is in effect calling for the president's removal. "It is clear that the statement calls for the defeat of the administration," said William C Harrop, former ambassador to Israel. But supporters of the administration said the former officials who had signed the letter were simply trying to hide the inadequacy of their own policies. Cliff May, president of the conservative Foundation for the Defense of Democracies, told the BBC: "Largely, they are people who were in senior official capacities before 9/11. They are people who are responsible for the policies prior to 9/11. "Those policies I think, failed spectacularly on 9/11," he said. THE SIGNATORIES Avis T Bohlen, President Bush's former assistant secretary of state for arms control Adm William J Crowe, chairman of the joint chiefs of staff under President Reagan and ambassador to UK under President Clinton; has endorsed John Kerry Jeffrey S Davidow, President Bush's former ambassador to Mexico William A DePree, ex-ambassador to Bangladesh Donald B Easum, ex-ambassador to Nigeria Charles W Freeman, ex-ambassador to Saudi Arabia William C Harrop, President Bush Senior's ambassador to Israel Arthur A Hartman, ex-ambassador to Soviet Union and France Gen Joseph P Hoar, commander in chief of US Central Command under Bush Sr; supports John Kerry H Allen Holmes, ex-special operations chief Robert V Keeley, ex-ambassador to Greece and Zimbabwe Samuel W Lewis, ex-ambassador to Israel Princeton N Lyman, ex-ambassador to South Africa Jack F Matlock, ambassador to the USSR under President Reagan and President Bush Senior Donald F McHenry, ex-ambassador to the UN Gen Merrill A McPeak, former Air Force chief of staff; supports John Kerry George E Moose, ex-African affairs chief David D Newsom, former acting secretary of state Phyllis E Oakley, ex-intelligence and research chief James Daniel Phillips, ex-ambassador to Africa John E Reinhardt, ex-ambassador to Nigeria Gen William Y Smith, ex-deputy commander in chief, US European Command Ronald I Spiers, ex-senior UN official and ambassador to Pakistan Michael Sterner, ex-ambassador in Middle East Adm Stansfield Turner, CIA director under Carter; has endorsed John Kerry Alexander F Watson, ex-assistant secretary of state for Inter-American affairs From BBC It is interesting to note the differences between those former diplomats and military types against the current US administration.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
06-17-2004, 03:43 PM | #2 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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I don't really get the point of this is. It seems as if it's tryign to say - "see even people who were ambassadors under Reagan or Bush 41 are against Bush" But the thing is - that doesn't mean they are republicans or democrats. Just by posting this - doesn't really say anything at all. It doesn't tell who these people are or what they're past beliefs were. This is a political year - in a period where the mud is slinging from both sides - I want more information than just an open letter like this.
I find it funny that now people basically say that what was stated by the Bush administration was that "the Iraqis would welcome us with open arms with no problems". They did initially welcome us - for quite a while too - but it was also stated repeatedly, if people watched the news, that problems would develop from multiple sources by people who did not want Iraq to be democratic or to succeed. That also happened - maybe it was greater than what was expected, but that doesn't mean it should have been expected to be worse. It has only been a little over a year since the downfall of Hussein - it has been 3 years for Afganistan and there are still problems there. You can't turn a country around in less than a year or even three years. As for the callousness toward the world around us - it was a lot of Clinton's listening to European and world opinion that got us 9/11. It was them that kept complaining everytime Clinton did something against Al Qaeda and bin Ladin. Anyone remember that babyfood plant in the Sudan that just happened to have english on all their signs? Clinton was so in bed with Europe that he listened to them instead of putting America's national security first. I don't put my faith in Europe or world opinion. I especially don't put my faith in three countries who were against the war in Iraq but has now come out that they had underhanded deals with the Oil-for-Food program and Hussein. It's amazing - the UN scandel doesn't get much press - I wonder why. By the way - here is this... Quote:
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 06-17-2004 at 03:50 PM. |
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06-17-2004, 03:49 PM | #3 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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I don't really see the point to this thread either. (OK - one down, two to go! ) (Hey JD - maybe THAT'S what's going on... three different people start three different loopy threads, get you to respond to each... then can carry on in a fourth thread all day without your counter-points! Don't answer me here though! )
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06-18-2004, 05:56 AM | #4 |
Elven Warrior
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'Blinded by ideology' is damn right, and I am glad some senior figures are saying it. Bear in mind, I am for the war in Iraq, just not in the erratic and damned silly way the Americans are managing it. The flaw comes in their belief that they have sold to the American public that America can pull out soon. To do that would be fatal and typical of the gutless, hit 'n run style invasions of the U.S. since the 1960's. If the Americans can't take rebuilding Iraq, then surely here is were Britain's colonial successes will come into their own. Leave it to the British, we at least should be able to stick establishing an administration that is stable, under British control.
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Take up the White Man's burden-- The savage wars of peace-- Fill full the mouth of Famine, And bid the sickness cease; And when your goal is nearest (The end for others sought) Watch sloth and heathen folly Bring all your hope to nought. |
06-18-2004, 08:36 AM | #5 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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And where do you get this information that we are being "sold the idea" that we can pull out soon. There has NEVER been a time table for us pulling out. It has always been when Iraq is stable. Right now it's not even until 2006. It's not exactly tomorrow or anything. We're not colonialists like you trying to take over people's countries. As for your "gutless hit n run" comment - oh yeah - that's us. How many troops does the maginificent Britain have compared to us? You might not be aware of this - but we took on the most dangerous part of the country - which was the Baghdad/Sunni area. We are also still in Afganistan and except for people against the war - we are staying there - and staying in Iraq to rebuild. You're comments here are truly ignorant - when talking about your own history and that of the Middle East as well as what the US is doing or what has been talked about here in the US.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 06-18-2004 at 08:42 AM. |
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06-18-2004, 08:41 AM | #6 |
Elf Lord
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( wouldn't be too quick to hold up British colonialism as a model of international relations, since so many of the world's conflicts can be traced to the legacy of our occupation.)
There is a point in this thread, which is in the title: whether or not you agree with them, it is completely unprecedented for such an august, independent group to come out with such an explicit condemnation of current policies. It would be interesting to hear people's views on how that might affect the credibility of the administration. The UN story, if true, doesn't really provide much succour for Bush et al. If indeed Iraq was and is shipping weapons out, it raises a number of issues: - firstly, that's pretty clever since Saddam's in jail; - secondly, it's happening under the noses of the US and British administration, which hardly commends their ability to find and neutralise the WMDs they were supposedly sent in for in the first place; - thirdly, it suggests that the war led to an increase in the trade in WMDs, as predicted by many of its opponents. Anyway, I think we can be pretty confident that if there were any real evidence of WMDs, it would be all over the news in a flash. |
06-18-2004, 11:17 AM | #7 | ||
The Tall
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Quote:
Quote:
The argument for the war turned out to be wrong. Oops. It remains to be seen if what happens to Iraq turns out for the better. Clearly the Bush administration was not prepared for the aftermath of the war. The big question is: Did it contribute in a positive way to the war against terrorism? For now not, there seems to be more people willing to join the ranks of terrorist organizations, and the US has managed to anger the muslim population in the Middle-East beyond the Israeli-Palestinian problem. They are not closer in capturing the leaders of Al-Quaida than before. Britain in charge would be better IMO, just because of the tact of the current British administration in regards to the current US one. Really, there is a great gap in the qualities between a Tony Blair and a GWB. One can speak correctly his language and the other can't. Of course the solution is to bring the UN to the table and for they to take over the process. The unprecedented thing is that I had a conversation with someone who was trying to explain something about the way the US along with it's citizenry works. I was told that the population stand by the leadership of the country. But then it turns out that they do. Because I'm ignorant in some things about the us, I was wondering if ever before there has been a group of diplomats and military types who have attacked as they had the current Administration.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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06-18-2004, 12:54 PM | #8 | |
Quasi Evil
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Indeed its quite a list and I have heard a number of conservative media types genuinely effected by this formal declaration by the likes of Admiral Crowe and Ambassador Harrop and General McPeak and such. Theres just no getting around that its a big blow to the administration. The last thing you ever want is dissent within your ranks.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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06-18-2004, 03:46 PM | #9 | ||||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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We don't control our national security based on the United Nations or the rest of the world. The problems in the Middle East have hardly been the US - and these attacks are because Bin Ladin and others know that a democractic successful Iraq will be a blow to them. That is why they are trying to bomb and cause problems. If people in Britain think they can do such a better job - then go and call on your governments to put more troops in there. Here is this by the way... Quote:
The Middle East HAS TO CHANGE - and that is it. Oh and Maedros - I love your damn sarcastic little signature. Quote:
Quote:
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 06-18-2004 at 04:25 PM. |
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06-18-2004, 04:24 PM | #10 |
Elven Warrior
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Jerseydevil, according to you has America ever done anything wrong? At all? Answer with a 'yes' or a 'no', avoid the use of the smiley and respond promptly.
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Take up the White Man's burden-- The savage wars of peace-- Fill full the mouth of Famine, And bid the sickness cease; And when your goal is nearest (The end for others sought) Watch sloth and heathen folly Bring all your hope to nought. |
06-18-2004, 08:49 PM | #11 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Btw, Your sig sucks IMO.
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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06-18-2004, 11:47 PM | #12 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Yes -as I have said MANY TIMES in the past - America has done things that were wrong - as have all countries. I just don't disagree with the war in Iraq - I also don't think it is going terrible. There are ups and downs in it - as in all wars. Concerning Putin - I wanted to post this... Quote:
As I have said - there is A LOT of stuff out there that NO ONE knows about - and now Putin comes out with this. I would like to know why after Chirac went to see him - why he changed his tune toward the US and war?
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 06-18-2004 at 11:48 PM. |
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06-19-2004, 03:25 AM | #13 |
the Shrike
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" "... that's all I have to say. These damned political threads with the same damned players sniping at each other all the time are just getting feckin' tiresome. You people need to pull yer undies out of yer feckin' arse and LIGHTEN UP.
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06-19-2004, 05:17 AM | #14 |
Elf Lord
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Yeah, it's descended into the usual tit-for-tat, off-topic copy and pasting and outright slagging in record time.
How about answering the question? |
06-20-2004, 01:03 AM | #15 | |
the Shrike
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06-20-2004, 03:11 PM | #16 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Not unprecedented at all... The media is still playing to ratings and with the swing in public opinion now the war is "bad". It's those bleeding parasites that helped the administration into whipping up that terrible fear of "mushroom clouds". Now, instead of a weak, crippled enemy, we have a weak, dependent satellite state. And all it cost was hundreds of billions of dollars, thousands of lives, international credibility, worse terrorism casualties, and an over extended military unprepared for unforeseen requirements.
Why would anyone criticize that? When you fall back on what Putin has to say you *are* truely desparate to prove a point that cannot be made. Even the administration won't touch that one.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
06-20-2004, 04:05 PM | #17 | |
Elf Lord
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The war in Iraq was done wonderfully, in my opinion. We neutralized the enemy without pounding thousands of drafted civilians to pieces, as in the Persian Gulf War. Jerseydevil is right, it does take a long time to rebuild a country. Like you Radagast, I certainly hope America sticks this out!
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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06-20-2004, 05:24 PM | #18 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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06-20-2004, 06:53 PM | #19 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Just answer the question which side of the bed... huh, oh it was rhetorical... nevermind.
And BoP, I'm not wearing any undies.. eh, what, metaphor??? but the other part was literal, right? Remember when we used to have fun together?
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
06-20-2004, 10:49 PM | #20 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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